Ambidextrous Link?

[Nate the Great]

http://www.zeldauniverse.net/content/view/615/2/

That's right, ladies and gentlemen, there IS a difference between the Gamecube and Revolution versions of Twilight Princess (please please PLEASE don't bring up the Wii debacle again). I mean besides the obvious control changes.

I fondly remember Link as being left-handed. Turns out that people find it easier to use the Wii-mote right-handed, so guess what? TP Revolution Link is right-handed, and TP Gamecube Link is left-handed! Absolutely moronic.

I would've preferred to have all Links be left-handed and actually face the challenge of using the Wiimote left-handed. Opinions?

Here's a poll to stir you guys up.

[GreenFire1]

I think you should be able to set it to your preference...

[JVTruman]

I think it should be an option, like the left-handed mouse option in Windows. That way, it can be set to whatever is easier to use for you, whether you're left- or right-handed.

[MaverickZer0]

Left-handed.

No, I don't say that for any reason. Just that I wouldn't see using a left-handed remote as much of a challenge. :D

[Nate the Great]

I'm not sure if I read that one version is just a mirror image of the other to accomplish the effect, or if they actually altered the game engine, but...

Personally I should think that the Revolution and the Revolution Wiimote should be advanced enough to allow you to choose right or left-handed at the start, and only mirror Link's sprite if necessary, not mirror the whole world. I can't imagine it being more difficult than modding a different tunic color or introducing four mask-transformed versions of Link in Majora's Mask.

Heck, do it the first time right-handed, then "un-lock" the left-handed option by beating the game, or just insert ZELDA as your username! Easier way to create a harder "second quest," huh?

[Zeke]

I have no objections. Link is the player character, and as such, he ought to have the player's handedness if that's helpful. It probably proved too difficult to provide both options, so they made the choice that worked best for 8/9ths of their customers rather than 1/9th.

There's another obvious point here -- even if all past Links have been left-handed, that has no bearing on this one. The Link of Twilight Princess is all-new. Zelda's not like most series, where the main character is the same guy (or gal) every time.

Anyway, the last word in videogame character handedness is this Bob and George strip (http://bobandgeorge.com/Archive/Nov05.php?date=18) from when George had just got an eyepatch.

[Nate the Great]

The sprite effect reared its ugly head in the original Legend of Zelda, but shouldn't we be past this by now? Hey, I'm no computer programming wizard, but as I understand it, sprite physics work on a few basic principles:

1. Every character has a basic imaginary "skeleton." This just means that the action is designed for the character's eyes, hands, knees, etc. to exist a certain distance from the ground and each other.
2. The "skin" (clothing, sheathed sword, etc) of a character creates a shell around the skeleton. The skeleton dictates which part of the skin is on the outside. For example, Link's legs are essentially hollow tubes that extend above the bottom of his tunic "skirt." The tunic is designed to be on the outside, so his upper thighs are generally tucked away inside his skirt until a larger jump requires more of his leg to show. It would be too complicated to actually have his leg end at the skirt and "lengthen" it as required. For a similar effect, get the camera stuck in Link's head. You see that his bangs just hover there, and that the only surfaces are the two that form the peak away from his forehead. The inner surface where it touches his "skin" isn't there because we're not supposed to need to see it.
3. When Link unsheathes his sword, he's essentially extending the sprites' skeleton. The interaction of sprite skeleton's is what causes damage effects to be applied. Note how he can walk through the outer fringes of some enemies as well as the floor of Jabu-Jabu's Belly because complete surface interaction would be very intensive in terms of processor speed and so on.

All this is to set up the following hypothesis.

Link being left- or right-handed is just a matter of which arm of his skeleton is designed to allow the possibility of sword extension. I imagine that his "skin" is symettrical enough to allow most of it to be flipped along with the skeleton. The only asymmetrical components are the shoulder his sheath strap goes over, the side of his belt that is tucked in, the side that his hair is parted on, etc. Now, his hair and belt can be considerred static for this example, but this sheath strap is a very important concept. He needs the sheath on his left shoulder if he's right-handed and vice-versa. A simple mirror reflection of the coordinates of the critical points of the sheath, his sword, etc as well as a reflection of the relative vectors of his sword and shield movement should be all that's needed. Compared to the processor capability necessary to render a dozen monkeys on the screen at once, this handed-ness should not be that difficult to set up.

[Chancellor Valium]

^That's one model design, yes.

@topic: Um...matters?

[Nate the Great]

Is there another model design? For 3-D sprites, I'm not sure if there is, short of having actual composites of solid spheres, cylinders, etc that would have pixel-for-pixel accurate collision programming.

[Chancellor Valium]

^You build a rough body out of attached bits of trimesh. Then cover it with a skin/editable mesh. Attach the two together, and add animations.

Obviously it's a bit more complicated than that, and I know *nothing* about consoleified stuff...

[Hejira]

Totally not a Zelda player here, but I voted for keeping Link a lefty because IMO, the reason for him changing hand preference is silly.

For example, Metroid Prime 3 has Samus opening certain doors with her left hand, and this was controlled with the Wiimote in the right hand. It confused the guy I saw playing it momentarily. (As far as I could tell, the framerate of the video sucked. Nice hi-res, though.)

Sooooooooo, lefty Link and righty Wii player...some period of readjustment time, I'd say, but after that they should get along like...like...

...very much unlike the various parts of my brain at the moment. Which is good. For TP players, not so much for my brain.

I'll probably get Twilight Princess anyway.

[Nate the Great]

Get along like twinkies, hot dogs and Cheez Whiz? Go Weird Al!

[ijdgaf]

I find it unusual that you still call the system "Revolution", Nate. The official name has been "Wii" for about six months now. It'll remain that way for years. And honestly, it will probably sell a bit better as a result. Revolution may sound cooler. But it's time to get with the program, dude. Calling it by its code name won't change the way the games play, or the graphics, or its price. It'll just get you sighs from those in the know and confused looks from those in the dark.

Wii.

Hardly apocalyptic.

[Nate the Great]

"It'll remain that way for years." Try FOREVER. Have you ever known a console name to change? Besides that whole Playstation/PS1 thing which still confuses me...

I'd rather get sighs from other people than wince every time I say "Wii." Every single time. A childish name indicates a childish system and a childish target market.

If you knew me personally, my stubborness would not surprise you at ALL.

[Hejira]

If you knew me personally, my stubborness would not surprise you at ALL.

I find it interesting that you're stubborn on what to call Nintendo's fifth home console, yet the first line of your sig is, "What's in a name?"

[mudshark]

Par for the course, then.

[Zeke]

If you knew me personally, my stubborness would not surprise you at ALL.

I don't know you personally and it sure doesn't surprise me.

[ijdgaf]

It is no more a childish name than "iPod", and it is no more a childish market than "iPod".

Take a look at the game library. The idea is to appeal to kids, adults, old people, hardcore gamers, first-timers... everyone.

Wii is simply a name. It may sound retarded to somebody used to names like "Playstation" and "Super Nintendo", but it's just the sort of name to attract the wide marketshare Nintendo is looking for.

I wasn't too surprised to see an initial outrage when the name was announced. I am surprised to see somebody still on a nomenclature boycott. The rest of the internet got over it months ago.

[Nate the Great]

If you don't know me personally, Z, who online does?

Oh yeah, I believe in playing on par, especially in minigolf. ;)

The name "Wii" attracts a wide marketshare? I thought it was the system, and furthermore, Twilight Princess and Smash Brothers Brawl.

[ijdgaf]

Go out and conduct a survey and see how many non-gamers have any idea what the hell "Legend of Zelda" or "Super Smash Brothers" refer to.

WIDER marketshare. Not just people who are already geeks.

[Nate the Great]

Um, if a person doesn't know what Zelda is, then he isn't a part of the target market, and thus not worth worrying about. Would Nintendo really try to attract more Zelda fans? If anything, they don't have to, because simply by being an action RPG they will get new people to experiment with it. Ditto with Smash Brothers.

Um, will Nintendo ever have to recruit new gamers? That's what big brothers, uncles, and friends are for. That's a fundamental principle of gaming.

[ijdgaf]

You really don't understand at all what Nintendo is trying to do this generation, do you?

Take a look at Wii Sports. Take a look at Cooking Mama. Take a look at WarioWare. On the DS, look at Brain Age. Nintendogs.

Nintendo is reaching out toward people who don't buy games right now. Girls. Middle-aged adults. Seniors. People who don't know the first thing about video games.

Hell, look at the controller itself. It's probably the first time in the history of console evolution that a major console designer has opted to decrease the number of buttons on the controller. Hand your grandmother a gamecube controller, or an x-box controller, or a PS2 controller, and try to explain how to play... well, pretty much any game available for any of these systems. It's not going to work very well. It's not terribly intuitive, and the sheer number of buttons on controllers these days makes video games somewhat intimidating to the uninitiated. And Nintendo's whole aim this generation is to expand the market to precisely these people.

The Wii controller is designed to be extraordinarily intuitive. You really don't have to explain much to tell a person how to play Baseball on Wii Sports. Even the most technologically inept person on the planet could be made to understand.

Forget Zelda and Metroid and Mario. Nintendo's still making these titles because they know they still need to draw in the hardcore gamers with in-depth gameplay. But they're reaching beyond these people as well. And they know "Nintendo Revolution" sounds pretty damn generic to anybody looking on a shelf. Wii grabs your attention. Wii is the sort of name that could easily enter the pop vernacular. The name is not for the hardcore gamer; he's going to buy the system anyway. The name is for everyone you know who doesn't know or care about video games.

I don't know why I'm bothering to explain this, it's been very (http://blog.wired.com/games/2006/04/in_defense_of_w.html?entry_id=1467976) thoroughly (http://wii.ign.com/articles/709/709938p1.html) articulated (http://www.vgpub.com/vgpub-talk-wii/editorial) over and over and over for months. Which is why it's so laughable that you seem so critical of the name, yet clueless about its global implications.

And its why its so utterly irrelevant what a few stubborn gamers think about a "W" and two consecutive "i"s.

[Nate the Great]

Um, the controller issue is usually addressed at the start of any game. Remember having to listen to Navi shout "Listen!" a zillion times to "learn" how to talk to someone in the distance and so forth?

I don't necessarily go for the zillion button controller, but very few games use all of them. Basically it's to give the game designer a multitute of options.

To address the issues in the articles:

If you mistake the name of one console with another, you're just an idiot. Even parents of small children (a possible new market for the Revolution) would know what the disk and disk case looks like for the system that they have. Mistaking an XBox for a Gamecube and vice-versa? Who does that?

Revolution is not corny. It might be lame and unimaginative, but it's not corny.

Agreement with the sentiment that posting a website to justify the name smacks of desperate panicked PR people.

Amazement that people think that any press=good press, using the controversy to increase consumer awareness of the product.

"Revolution" threatening to nongamers? How?

Why would Nintendo not want the name of a video game console to sound like the name of a video game console?

Oh, and whether or not the name "Nintendo" is part of the title, we're gonna use it. Just like you don't technically need the Sony in Playstation. Plus with Wii I'd have to include Nintendo just to avoid the toilet jokes. "I'm going to play with the Wii." "I'm going to play the Nintendo Wii." Etc.

[Hejira]

I'm wondering what you'll be asking for when you buy your next Nintendo console. I know what I'd do if I were serving you:

"I'd like a Revolution."
"What's that?"
"You know, the new Nintendo."
"They don't have anything 'Revolution'. They have a Wii, though."
"I'd like the" *[points to Wii] "Revolution. Look, look where I'm pointing."
"I'm not serving you until you call it the Wii, sir."

What do you do? What do you do?

[PointyHairedJedi]

Shooting the hostage usually seems to work okay.

[Nate the Great]

You'd never use the name Revolution to buy a Wii, but you'd use it for everything else, at least I would.

[Hejira]

You'd never use the name Revolution to buy a Wii, but you'd use it for everything else, at least I would.

Everything else?

"That burrito went right through me, I've gotta take a major Revolution. BRB."

See what I did there? I'm so proud of myself. ^_^

[Nate the Great]

At least someone is. See what I did there? :)

[Hejira]

...my mum's proud of me.

[PointyHairedJedi]

We seems to have struck a sour note all of a sudden. It never would have happened of course if certain parties had just taken my advice and shot the hostage already (and if you don't have a hostage to shoot at then that's your own damn fault).

[Nate the Great]

"Where's my hostage? I don't have a hos-GAK!"

Aw man, bulletholes are so hard to repair! Yes, I'm back! It's....

THE NIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD FIVIST!!!!!

Oooooohhhhhhh........

Yuck, that really IS a sour note. Anyone have a Tic Tac?

[Hejira]

But...but the Wii was the hostage! You'd really shoot an innocent Wii?

[Nate the Great]

If it has a Wii logo on it, I'd call it a mercy killing. Just like shooting a horse with a broken leg.

Oh, and as far as I'm concerned, any system silly enough to call itself Wii can't possibly be innocent.

[PointyHairedJedi]

I was going to say something about zombie Wii, but now I can't stop giggling.

Damn you, Nintendo, damn you.

[mudshark]

Oh, and as far as I'm concerned, any system silly enough to call itself Wii can't possibly be innocent.
Heck, I still can't even say "Nintendo" with a straight face. Talk about silly... :rolleyes:

[Nate the Great]

I still wonder what Nintendo means. Of course, I'm also still confused about:

1. The company is called Nintendo even in Japan, where it used to be a playing card company.
2. In Japan it's called the Famicom, or Family Computer, so they're abridging (or fiving if you prefer) English words for the Japanese name.
3. Why we don't call it the Famicom, if it's an English portmanteu.

[Chancellor Valium]

Shooting the hostage usually seems to work okay.

Are you sure your name isn't Goto?

[PointyHairedJedi]

I am not a FORTRAN command, I am a free man!

[Chancellor Valium]

I am not a FORTRAN command, I am a free man!

Really... (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Goto)

[Nate the Great]

The fact that more than one of you is FORTRAN-saavy is, frankly, very very VERY frightening. That's not just nerdy, that's ubernerdy! (See what I did there? :))

Yeah, I'm a proud member of the DOS generation. I had Apple IIe's back in elementary school (go Number Munchers! Go Carmen Sandiego! Go go GO Oregon Trail! ;)), but FORTRAN?

Oh, and as an aside...yikes computers have advanced in just the last twenty years, haven't they? I know, I know, once again the upstart 24-year old is showing his supreme ignorance by feigning to be wise in all branches of wisdom. Well, I had to come to grips with my identity as a pompous upstart a long time ago. It's actually interesting work if you can get it.

[Chancellor Valium]

The fact that more than one of you is FORTRAN-saavy is, frankly, very very VERY frightening. That's not just nerdy, that's ubernerdy! (See what I did there? :))

Yeah, I'm a proud member of the DOS generation. I had Apple IIe's back in elementary school (go Number Munchers! Go Carmen Sandiego! Go go GO Oregon Trail! ;)), but FORTRAN?

Oh, and as an aside...yikes computers have advanced in just the last twenty years, haven't they? I know, I know, once again the upstart 24-year old is showing his supreme ignorance by feigning to be wise in all branches of wisdom. Well, I had to come to grips with my identity as a pompous upstart a long time ago. It's actually interesting work if you can get it.

Actually, I have no idea about FORTRAN - click the link :p

[Nate the Great]

I did. Neither do I. That's the point.

[PointyHairedJedi]

I pretty much cheated and looked up a list of programming languages that use the GOTO command. This is the Internet, after all.

[Nate the Great]

Oh, it is? I hadn't noticed... :)

[Zeke]

To return to the original topic, it turns out we didn't know the half of it. It's not just Link's handedness that's reversed in the GC version... it's the <i>entire game</i>. Every asymmetric object is flipped; every left turn is a right. As far as I'm concerned, that's just laziness, and it's gonna make talking about the game very confusing.

[ijdgaf]

The real downside there is, the map (so far, anyway) seems to resemble Ocarina of Time's map in terms of where everything is... only it's all reversed. Which makes the nostalgia not quite so nostalgiasmic.

Regardless, the game is fantastic.

[Nate the Great]

Come to think of it, that does make sense, flipping the entire world. I suppose it would be a much simpler algorithm to flip the coordinates on the y-axis or whatever than to flip Link's sprite.

I can bet that the writers of the strategy guide are just gonna LOVE that. Informal poll, how much you wanna be that they won't even bother with the Gamecube version, except for a little disclaimer at the start that mentions the flip and basic control movements for the GC controller?

[Derek]

To return to the original topic, it turns out we didn't know the half of it. It's not just Link's handedness that's reversed in the GC version... it's the <i>entire game</i>. Every asymmetric object is flipped; every left turn is a right. As far as I'm concerned, that's just laziness, and it's gonna make talking about the game very confusing.

Actually, I think I had read that a while ago. It makes sense from a programming standpoint. Just put in a little flip function and route all input and output through it. Assuming they did that though, it seems strange that they wouldn't just put a "right-handed/left-handed" option in the game that flips the direction or not.

[Nate the Great]

Um, given that this game is supposed to be HUGE with a capital HUGE, I'm not sure that squeezing it onto a Gamecube disc and then tell it to flip the entire world or not would be that simple. Remember, the world may be flipped, but there are a lot of things like the icons, words, etc that have to stay the same. I also hope that whenever we see Hylian words on the wooden signs and so forth that they stay the same one version to another.

[Hejira]

Uhm...2D sprites were flipped all the time, which saved space. 3D polygons and the textures that coat them should work under a similar principle (yep, even the signpost exceptions.)

Of course, I predict the my left or your left gag will be dusted off and abused once more.

Friend 1: "'k, now turn left."
Friend 2: "Which left? Wii left or 'Cube left?"
Friend 1: "See which hand Link's using to hold his sword? That way."
Friend 2: "Oh, okay. Wait, you got the Gamecube version?"
Friend 1: "Yes, yes I did."
Friend 2: "Never speak to me again. Neanderthal."

[Nate the Great]

Been awhile since anyone's read me through a game.

Once again I've deleted my usual preachy rant that I write when I get riled up, this time about whether I think a TP GC is necessary in the first place.

So, I presume that there are people playing it now, and I was curious as to how long it takes for Link to go from his patchwork leather wrangler outfit to his traditional green garb.

[ijdgaf]

I was about five hours into the game when that happened.

[Nate the Great]

Okay, is that five hours in "learning mode" time i.e. with enough repetition you can make it faster, or five hours in "real" time i.e. the tasks required take that much time.

[Zeke]

Of course, I predict the my left or your left gag will be dusted off and abused once more.

My side, your side! My side, your side! My side, your side!

Friend 2: "Oh, okay. Wait, you got the Gamecube version?"
Friend 1: "Yes, yes I did."
Friend 2: "Never speak to me again. Neanderthal."

Oh yeah, 'cause it's SO EASY to get a Wii. Really really easy. And it's not like Nintendo promised GameCube owners another Zelda game two years ago. Friend 1 may be a Neanderthal, but Friend 2 is downright australopethicene.

[Nate the Great]

I have yet to own any game less than ... a year after it was made? Console? Two years, at least. I don't feel deprived. Even if I had five hundred bucks right now, I still wouldn't buy a Revolution. I'd wait until a few versions had passed, let them iron out the bugs, let them release Brawl, then I'd consider it.

Even if I had a Gamecube, I wouldn't buy TP GC because it's the the faded carbon copy version of TP Rev. I can wait.

[ijdgaf]

Okay, is that five hours in "learning mode" time i.e. with enough repetition you can make it faster, or five hours in "real" time i.e. the tasks required take that much time.

I'm talking about five hours according to the save file. Which wouldn't include times you die, turn off without saving, cut scenes, etc.

I'm currently about 11.5 hours into the game and I've only beaten two dungeons.

They weren't kidding. It's huge.

[Nate the Great]

My question still stands.

[ijdgaf]

Does it really? I'm not Supergamer. I don't automatically play a game on the first try in the most efficient order possible. I don't abstain from exploration in favor of perfectly linear, nearly-precognitive pathways toward objectives.

Oh, yeah. Nobody does. Save maybe developers and/or people who employ strategy guides with their video games in the same way that old people employ walkers with mobility.

[Nate the Great]

That wasn't my point, nor was it my intention. The question is simply "given a dozen attempts at achieving this position in the game, how long will it take?" If the step A, step B, etc. that lead to Link assuming the green tunic require five hours as an inherent component of gameplay, then that's the answer I want. If five hours leaves room for improvement as familiarity increases, then that's the answer I want.

[Zeke]

I don't see how you expect IJD to know that on his first playthrough, Nate. Just find out for yourself when you get the game.

Even if I had a Gamecube, I wouldn't buy TP GC because it's the the faded carbon copy version of TP Rev.

That seems unlikely. The game was in development for GameCube for at least a year, probably more like two, before the Wii entered the picture. So TP is probably a GameCube game with extra stuff for Wii, not a Wii game cropped to fit on GC.

[Nate the Great]

I give up. Clearly my intent is not being comprehended. Let's say that one of the tasks required to achieve the green tunic is akin to the Forest Temple. Now, one of the stages in completing the Forest Temple requires twisting and untwisting a pair of corridors. Certain rooms are only accessable in the twisted configuration, certain room are only accessable in the untwisted configuration. That makes four discrete Forest Temple arrangements, each of which provides opportunities for delays if you don't twist and untwist in the correct sequence with the correct Keys at the correct times. The first time a person attempts this, it will undoubtedly take hours of backtracking, testing every room all over again, trying every combination of eye switches. Like I've said, the first time I played I was one Key short, that's why I had to buy the strategy guide to find it. Now I can do the entire Forest Temple in under I'm asking if ijdgaf can recognize that a certain amount of time spent exploring is unnecessary for a player more experienced. However, for all I know, the tasks in Twilight Princess are blatantly obvious, with big, glaring signs that say DO THIS and DO THAT, GO HERE and GO THERE, along with enemies that require two seconds to kill. In this scenario five hours is in fact the time that it takes, no trimming of any significance can be done. That's why I'm asking.

[ijdgaf]

That seems unlikely. The game was in development for GameCube for at least a year, probably more like two, before the Wii entered the picture. So TP is probably a GameCube game with extra stuff for Wii, not a Wii game cropped to fit on GC.

It is a GC game with extra stuff for Wii. But from what I've read, the team switched tracks to the Wii at least a year ago -- the additions are certainly significant.

I really can't imagine playing the game using the same old buttons to work the boomerang, bow, and fishing rod... these Wii upgrades are a definite improvement. And from every review I've seen from somebody who's played both, the GC version is indeed inferior. That's not to say it's bad or anything. But the control on the Wii version is well-developed and top notch.

Holding out for the Wii version is indeed the smart move here, methinks.

edit: Nate, if it wasn't thoroughly obvious from each of my posts here already, I'm sure you could indeed obtain the green tunic in a shorter amount of time. Since I haven't restarted, and don't plan to in the near future, I couldn't give you any real estimate as to what kind of time-saving we're talking about here.

And I'm really not sure why the topic of how long it takes to get the green tunic is quite so important in the first place.

[Nate the Great]

Well, I can develop a habit of getting obsessed with trying to make myself clear. Maybe I'm just a little dubious about any game taking the time spans people are describing.

If the Revolution version is just Gamecube + extras, then why was the Revolution version released first? I assumed that they'd be concurrent releases.

The green tunic debate was just me stewing about how ugly I think the wrangler outfit is. I suppose it was to be expected that unless you're actually living in the Kokiri Forest, you wouldn't be wearing white tights. For that matter, why can't he put on pants if he's gonna be fighting giant skeletons? :)

[ijdgaf]

Gamecube development was halted a while back in order to focus on getting the Wii build ready. Since that version has been released, they're back to work on the original Gamecube build.

[Nate the Great]

Uh, okay. I suppose once again business sense (Revolution killer app) trumps common sense (finish the current project and make good the promise that TP is a Gamecube game).

I can imagine using the old controls, because I've used them in OOT. That doesn't mean I won't enjoy the new ones, but you don't forget the movements that you've used hundreds of times over years and years.

I'd now like to relate an awesome political cartoon that I found in my alma mater's daily paper. Mario is using a Wiimote to control a giant sledgehammer, using it to smash a PS3 to bits. :)

[ijdgaf]

Well I can *imagine* using the older controls... but why would I want to? Aiming with the Wiimote is SO much more rewarding.

Swordplay less so. But still fun.

[Nate the Great]

You'd want to because you have a backlog of GC games that won't be enhanced by using a Wiimote. ;)

Just a harmless jab there. I'm sure that all of you will still be playing your old GC games on the Revolution.

More rewarding? Uh, until you can do so without smashing your TV screens, I think that the monetary rewards will end up having a negative magnitude.

[ijdgaf]

Okay, the swordplay just got better. And I have a hard time believing it's not going to keep getting better.

The Wii build is definitely the way to go here. I even withdraw my previous complaint about the reversed map -- the locations are not quite so pinpoint accurate as I had believed in either orientation.

Seriously, my biggest complaints about this game at the moment are:

1) in the cut scenes, characters shake hands left-handed
2) you climb ladders more slowly than I would like.

...and that's it.

[Zeke]

Climbing ladders is still slow? Ocarina, Wind Waker, now TP... how long must we endure this? I know real people don't climb all that fast, but neither can they jump their own height, run all day without tiring, et cetera.

As for the handshakes, maybe all the characters are Boy Scouts.

(For those who don't know, Scouts shake left-handed as a sign of trust -- the left arm was traditionally the shield arm, so it symbolizes lowering your defenses.)

[ijdgaf]

I always picked my nose with my left hand before scout meetings.

[Zeke]

Wow... even before you were online, you were a troll.

[Nate the Great]

Link's still climbing ladders? I thought that he'd be climbing ropes and vines hand over hand by now, given how much they're touting the new graphical capabilities of the Revolution.

[ijdgaf]

Well... if you knew anything about my hick troop, you'd have a clearer picture of things.

Man, am I glad that's over.

[mudshark]

If it was anything like mine, no further explanation required.

[ijdgaf]

Yes... it is the sole reason I do not regret quitting at Life.

(the rank, not the metaphysical experience)

[Nate the Great]

Hey, you got me beat. I stopped at Star. :)

Oh, and I think I read about the left-handshake in an OLD Scout manuel, but my troop, at least, never did it.

[mudshark]

No left-handshake? Hmmm. Clearly infidels and un-mutual. :p

(I think I'd just made First Class when I figured out which way the wind was really blowing... )

[Nate the Great]

Oh sure, start shunning me, I am unworthy...

[Zeke]

Now you guys have lost me. Which way was the wind really blowing?

[ijdgaf]

Illustration:

One time on a week long retreat I got sick.

Hick scout masters' verdict: "homesickness"

Actual doctor's diagnosis: Salmonella.

I travelled all over the place as a kid. I've never been homesick in my life. Of course, these guys were too mentally deficient and/or lazy to actually call for medical attention.

Whoops.

[ijdgaf]

About Zelda:

25 hours in, 4 dungeons behind me.

Swordplay with the Wiimote keeps getting better and better.

I'm not geeking out over the plot completely yet. But I'm getting the impression there are some definite bombshells coming up.

Still not sure how the hell they'll manage to squeeze this game chronologically between OoT/MM and Wind Waker.

Go Adama!

(wait, that's not about Zelda...)

[Nate the Great]

In 25 hours I golly well expect the plot to get addictive. I'll give them a few hours of non addictive stuff, because we all have to learn the interface, dungeon setup, etc, but after four dungeons, I hope you're in the swing of things. Unless you're STILL just starting and there's really fifty dungeons. :)

[ijdgaf]

Don't worry. You'll get a few hours of nonaddictive stuff. I was very unimpressed by the plot at first. I'm enjoying it more now, but it's not the geekgasm I've been promised.... yet.

[Nate the Great]

There's a new one for the glossary: geekgasm. :) Of course my mind immediately went to the Riddler in Batman Forever. Joygasm!

So what's wrong with the plot? Too simple? Too complicated? Too many subplots that aren't connecting, ever?

[ijdgaf]

Too boring for the first couple of hours.

Right now, It's just sort of weird because the dots haven't been fully connected on how it fits in with the other games. The new elements are cool and all, but I don't really see the connection. Yet. But I have a hard time believing it's not coming. So I'm still optimistic it'll turn out great (as I've heard nothing but great things about the plot).

It's mostly because my impressions just aren't complete yet.

[Nate the Great]

So you kinda want the standard infodump on "okay, this is what happened before, here are some subtle references to the Links of the other games," etc.

This leads into one of my canonical itches that I can't scratch away. Some canon lists of the games split into a "Adult OOT Link" branch and a "Child OOT Link" branch. You know, one history had the world know that Link stopped Ganon, there was a period of reconstruction, maybe he married Zelda, who knows. The other history had him reappear in the Temple of Time immediately after he left. I think in the final timeline Ganon and his minions suddenly vanished in the middle of their attack on Hyrule Castle (when Link was still inside Jabu Jabu). At least that was my assumption. Then again, the big question with the end of OOT was "did Zelda know who Link was?" That was never answered, was it?

For that matter, how did a child of ten (according to the game manuals) get his hands on Epona to take her to Termina in MM? From the way Talon was talking, even as a young horse Epona was clearly remarkable and would be valuable property, either as breeding stock or as a present to Zelda's father or something. Even with 500 rupees, could Link just out and out BUY Epona?

Then again, how much is a rupee? Is there anything in the game that Link can buy that would immediately have a real-world dollar amount attached to it? Let's try guessing a bit. A minigame is usually ten rupees, right? Let's say that that indicates that 1 rupee=50 cents to a dollar, comparing a minigame to most arcade games (real ones like Skeeball, not Pac-man :)). I'd say that it's closer to a dollar, what with the 20 rupee cost for a shield. Twenty bucks for a large (presumably hardened) piece of bark, carved and painted, with a leather strap, seems about right. Eighty bucks for a piece of sheet metal (a Hylian Shield), with wooden lathes on the inside and a metal handle, also seems reasonable.

Now, granted this doesn't seem to hold water in some areas. Maybe five hundred bucks for a fish in Goron City makes sense, but in Zora's Domain it should be cheaper. Simularly, magic is presented as the domain of a select few, given that not everyone has the munitions required to access the Hyrule Great Fairies Fountain, clearly few people climb Death Mountain, as visitors seem to be few and far between in Goron City, etc. One would presume that magic would be cleaper in the outlands than in Hyrule Castle Town.

[ijdgaf]

You clearly need to play Wind Waker. It clears up (for me) a lot of the confusion about where the timeline went from Ocarina.

Essentially, in the intro to WW, it talks about a hero (we're lead to assume this is the Hero of Time from Ocarina) who saves Hyrule from an evil force. But then, the hero leaves Hyrule and the evil returns. The people expect their hero to arrive, but he never does. And the fate of Hyrule is a mystery.

I'm not going to elaborate further since you haven't played it. But that's enough to make my point.

The end of Ocarina has Link restored to his status as a child. And then he leaves for Termina in Majora's Mask.

And this makes perfect sense with the backstory of Wind Waker. Here, we can assume Link never returns to Hyrule, and when the evil returns Hyrule is SOL.

Now everything I've read states that Twilight Princess takes place between Majora's Mask and Wind Waker. Which makes very little sense to me. How did they manage to squeeze a third hero between them? Which hero does the backstory of Wind Waker speak of? Is the Link of Twilight Princess going to be forgotten somehow? Or was the original hero forgotten? Or what?

As of 31 hours in, there aren't any answers. But there have been *plenty* of nods to Ocarina of Time which lead me to assume the answers are coming. I'm just stumped at the moment is all. I can't accurately assess the strength of the plot because I've been lead to believe the big reveals are yet to come.

Of course, I've spent the past 5 hours searching for heart pieces, fishing, raising money for [censored], and collecting various golden [censored]. None of which have anything at all to do with the main plot.

It's Zelda, through and through. And the side quests are certainly compelling. And fishing freaking ROCKS with the wiimote.

It also doesn't help that I haven't the vaguest idea where the next temple is. Hmmm....

[Nate the Great]

From what I've seen, aren't LARGE sectors of Windwaker devoted to:

1. Playing a song to summon winds and/or the boat.
2. Sailing the stinkin' boat.
3. Fighting up a hundred-story tower.

"How do they manage" Um, except for the game sets that are obviously one right after the other (OOT/MM, LOZ/AL, LTTP/FS, etc.), aren't the sets themselves hundreds of years apart?

For that matter, I'm led to believe that the only "Child Link returned to Hyrule" post-OOT games are MM and OOA/OOS. Everything else is "Adult Link survives OOT," right?

Don't worry about spoilers. Remember that I bought the MM manual before I even owned or played the game. Still don't own it, I borrowed it from a friend, he was even nice enough to give me my own Expansion Pak. I tiptoed through MM and still found it challenging.

I suppose that's one handy reason to have Navi. After about the twentieth time through, I started listening to her again and she was always there to prod me in the right direction in case it was my first time and didn't know already. Seriously, Kaepora Gaebora sends you to Zelda, who sends you to Impa, who sends you to Kakariko and up Death Mountain, who sends you on a "green song" quest back to the Lost Woods to meet Saria. Darunia sends you up Death Mountain, Navi tells you to call Saria, who says that King Zora has the Sapphire. The only thing you can do is dive, you find the hole, find the bottle, everyone's prattling about Jabu-Jabu, etc. etc. You grow up, Sheik sends you to Kakariko, everyone's prattling how Dampe is haunting everyone, beat Dampe, beat the Forest Temple, Navi sees dark clouds over Death Mountain, feels an icy wind from Zora's Domain (sensitive fairy :)), reminds you about Impa and Kakariko, practically screams at you to visit the desert, yada yada.

Kinda sad, though, how you still don't know the central thrust yet. In OOT it was:

1. Save the Deku Tree.
2. Visit Zelda.
3. Get the stones.
4. Open the Door of Time.
5. Get the medallions.
6. Beat Ganon.

You always knew what the end goal was, beyond just "beat Ganondorf."

I gave up on the LOZ GBA because of that problem: where's the temple? You can reach all eight in any order, right? But you can't BEAT all eight in any order. You can't even FIND all eight in the right order. That stinks.

[ijdgaf]

Sorry I didn't make this clear before, but I think it's unnecessary to say that some games followed Link as a child, others as an adult after OoT.

The intro to Wind Waker talks about a hero who left Hyrule after saving it, but didn't return when it needed help again. Sounds easy enough to reconcile with Majora's Mask to me, where a hero left Hyrule and didn't return. And Wind Waker seems to set things up nicely for Link to the Past, the next game in the series (I think Phantom Hourglass will make this connection stronger).

So I don't think any games followed Link as an adult after OoT. Unless Twilight Princess does somehow.

Anyway, everyone has there own opinion on how the games flow together timewise anyway. Nintendo's only now really figuring it out with the titles since Ocarina.

For the hell of it, my (perfect) take:

First Link
Minish Cap

Second Link
Four Swords
Four Sword Adventures

Third Link
Ocarina of Time
Majora's Mask

Fourth Link
Twilight Princess

Fifth Link
Wind Waker
Phantom Hourglass

Sixth Link
Link to the Past

Seventh or Eigth Link:
Oracle of Ages
Oracle of Seasons
Link's Awakening

Seventh or Eigth Link:
Legend of Zelda
Adventure of Link

[Nate the Great]

http://egamia.com/wiki/Zelda_Timeline

I don't take this site as the definative Zelda timeline, but they seem to be more versed in this stuff than I am. They say that there's a timeline split, so I assume that there is. They also use a lot of subtle h2g2 jokes, so I respect them for that, too.

Summary of the Summary: People are a problem.

Ain't that the truth?

[ijdgaf]

Pure speculation, and it ignores so many details as to make it virtually worthless, such as:

1) When LttP came out, it was pretty much universally referred to as a prequel to LoZ and AoL. We see the story of the sages for the first time (in terms of game release). Plus, there are lead-in hints in Wind Waker for this story to happen next.

2) Minish Cap has frequently been referred to as the very first game in the timeline. Which would pretty much make all the four swords games before everything else. Also, they deal with a different villain. It's easy to infer that they predate Ganon(dorf)'s existance.

3) The Link of the Oracle games has never met Zelda. He cannot be the Hero of Time.

4) The joint ending of the Oracle games makes it clear that that this Link is the same as the Link of Link's Awakening. Pamphlets may have indicated otherwise in the past, but I think the story presented in games tends to supercede any other so-called "canon".

5) Four Swords Link is pretty obviously Four Sword Adventures Link.

6) There's really no need for a timeline split unless you really feel the need. It works just as well without. Unless Twilight Princess indicates such a split, it's mostly unnecessary and I would prefer a simpler explanation.

Not that any of it is really that important. The games, for the most part, deal with unrelated heroes who stand perfectly well on their own. Miyamoto has said they have an ultimate version of the timeline locked away somewhere, but it really doesn't matter either way. I guess it's cool that the games are starting to connect the dots, and it's fun to think about. But it's really not worth devoting too much attention to.

[Nate the Great]

Ah, the old "we know what we're doing, but it's a secret even to us" gag. Sounds like the Coca-cola formula. :)

Uh, I thought there was a decree from on high that OOT is first. Period.

I don't like the idea of a split either, but the guy said that there was, so I assume that there is.

I suppose I'm in favor of an "adult ending OOT" timeline, if only because it would mean that the Hero of Time is actually remembered by everyone. I mean, everyone who's anyone in Hyrule knew who Link was by the end. He'd established his legendary status as a Dodongo Buster with the Gorons, I'm sure his "breaking off" of his "engagement" with Ruto will be gossipped about for generations among the Zoras. The Kokiri actually left the forest at the end of OOT, so they will speak of him, too.

Oh, a sidenote on the "Kokiri at the party, even though they're supposed to stay in the Forest" thing. I don't think for a second that they'd really die if they tried to leave, that was just a white lie given by the Great Deku Tree for their protection. That was to keep the Kokiri in blissful ignorance. Kinda odd, though, how Malon knew about the "fairy boys from the forest." I didn't see anything keeping anyone out, either. Did the Hylians just take a stand of voluntary slothfulness about the Kokiri? Anyway, with Ganon gone and the other evil guys vanquished, there wasn't any reason for the Deku Tree Sprout to keep them in, so they went out to the party.

[ijdgaf]

They clearly break that rule in Wind Waker ;)

[Nate the Great]

Oh, come on! After twenty years, don't they realize that we care about this stuff? What possible reason could they have for not giving us the official timeline?

[ijdgaf]

I was referring to the Kokiri.

And sorry, but HOLY #%@*& I am frustrated with this game right now.

There are two types of fishing in this game. Easy and EXCEDINGLY FRUSTRATING. And unfortunately:

1) they don't give you much/any real direction on how it works, and
2) the latter type is the only type you can do anywhere, and
3) several points in the game you MUST fish to advance the storyline.

I am so burned out. Maybe even enough to stop procrastinating and start my grad school applications.

[Nate the Great]

Oh, the Kokiri. Well, I assume that there's no Great Deku Tree in TP to tell them not to.

Having to fish? Sounds like quite the burden. :)

I've heard that "the worst day fishing is still better than the best day working." Or so I've heard. Personally, I never really warmed up to it.

[ijdgaf]

Okay. After registering on the Penny Arcade forums just to ask a stupid question about fishing, I've figured it out. It's not hard, it's just unintuitive and lacking in instruction.

Fifth dungeon is awesome as hell. Surprise surprise.

[Nate the Great]

They're talking about TP at Penny Arcade? Weird.

[Hejira]

3) several points in the game you MUST fish to advance the storyline.

If the music changed to tell you a fish was actually on the line, it wouldn't be that much of a problem.

Two hours of my game time was spent figuring out that I had, indeed, had fish biting all the time. I have so far played for three hours.

Please tell me two-thirds of the entire game aren't dedicated to fishing. "Legend of Zelda: Twilight Sea Bass" isn't very appealing.

[ijdgaf]

That first fishing excursion I pretty much succeeded at randomly. Don't worry. You'll beat several more dungeons before you have to fish again.

The secret:

1) cast line
2) wiggle controller a little
3) wait for bobber to start sinking
4) pull up real hard
5) don't touch any buttons. Link'll pull it up automatically.

Here, I was wiggling the controller constantly or on and off, not realizing that you actually had to yank the controller when the bobber sank to hook a fish.

And the actual reel fishing later on is pretty fun, surprisingly. Don't get turned off to the concept entirely.

[Nate the Great]

You know, if you guys are trying to advertise TP, you really aren't doing a very good job, are you? :)

So, from what you've seen so far, does it meet Nintendo's promise of being as innovative, addictive, and spectacular as OOT?

[ijdgaf]

My chief complaints about this game are in regard to a single item (which works fine, but lacks instruction) and the speed with which one climbs ladders.

That's... really it.

The control really is a drastic improvement. The storyline is epic. The world is huge. The sidequests are awesome as hell and perfectly Zelda-esque.

The game kicks ass. Period.

Worth spending $300 for a new system + game, even.

[Nate the Great]

But is the kickbuttage as epic as OOT? :)

How can it be Zelda-esque if it IS Zelda? Just wondering. I assume you mean that there is a Zelda flavor unique to itself, I guess I just like being a git sometimes.

[Zeke]

Man, I can't wait to get this... though the compulsory fishing has ratcheted my enthusiasm down a notch. I know the fishing minigame in Ocarina is a fan favourite, but personally, I found it completely uninteresting.

On the timeline: When the games make it clear that they're to be taken as continuity sequels (like Wind Waker with respect to Ocarina), I take their word for it; I also put them in the same world when they occur in pairs that obviously go together (LoZ/AoL, OoT/MM, Oracles). But except in those cases, I think of the games as totally different universes where the basic Zelda story is retold each time. Trying to reconcile them requires backbreaking feats of rationalization -- which I can do, I'm a Trekkie, but I don't think it's worth it here. It's like trying to fit two Final Fantasy games together. Nintendo just likes to tell the story of the first time Link saves Zelda from Ganon, so they do it over and over.

This has been going on right from the start, incidentally. Ever read the story of Zelda II? It's the same Link but not the same Zelda, and we never hear from the one he saved last time. The very first time Nintendo had a chance to make continuity confusing, they did it.

All that said, if you do want a timeline, IJD's is sensible. I'd try to put the original game earlier for tradition's sake, but I get the reasoning.

Nate: The dungeon in Wind Waker with a million floors is optional. (And for the record, it goes down, not up.) There is a somewhat tedious compulsory part, a fetch quest before the final palace, but it's not too bad; further, the sea travel is much more interesting than people tend to say. By the way, you're not really surprised TP is being discussed at PA, are you?

IJD: I disagree about two things. One, Link in the Oracle games has met Zelda. She's mentioned and even comes to visit in whichever one you play second (then needs you to save her, natch). Two, Adama does rock sometimes, but not when you said it. From the date of your post, the episode you'd just seen is one where he's an utter douchebag.

[GreenFire1]

Huh. I always thought it was pretty damn clear that OoT is a fleshing-out of the "Imprisoning War" described in the introduction to LttP. Of course, the one thing that always confused me was the fact that all seven maidens in LttP are apparently Hylian, whereas there were five or six different races represented by the Sages in OoT. And even if we allow that even some of those races could interbreed with Hylians, I don't think the maidens could have had the power they had remaining if their Goron/Zora/Kokiri/Sheikah/Gerudo blood was so thin that they looked completely Hylian. Anyone have any clues, apart from the obvious "it's not a coherent timeline" one?

[Nate the Great]

I suppose now is an appropriate time to bring up the "fact" that Hylian is the elf-like race and Hyrulean is the general term for any inhabitant of Hyrule. Perhaps the earlier games used the wrong term because they didn't have it pinned down yet.

I suppose that one could argue that Kokiri, Gerudo, and Shiekah are just races of Hylians. The Kokiri may be ageless because of some mystical property of the forest. Wonder if that means that Saria will age now.

So that leaves Hylian, Zora, Goron, and Deku, just like in MM.

An optional dungeon? So what's the incentive?

The race issue seems to be minor retcon fodder, easily established as a temporal burp, as Dave Anez would put it.

[Zeke]

An optional dungeon? So what's the incentive?

What is it always? A Heart Piece. (Actually, I think one of those required fetch quest items is in there too, but only about a third of the way down.)

Also, each floor is just one room, albeit with like a million monsters (http://www.zeldacomic.net/archives/?pic=250.png) in it.

[Derek]

Also, each floor is just one room, albeit with like a million monsters (http://www.zeldacomic.net/archives/zc/?pic=250.png) in it.

Heh. Those guys are an easy kill though. Especially with the down-thrust sword attack.

[Nate the Great]

Down-thrust attack? Is that anything like a jump attack?

Heart Pieces are generally only useless once you become an expert at the game.

[Zeke]

Jump up, stab down. Doesn't sound like much, but it's one of the most powerful moves in any Zelda game. AoL is very hard before you get Down Thrust; after that the difficulty is more normal, though it picks up again at the final palace. The move is also found in Minish Cap, though it's less useful there.

I agree that Heart Pieces are mostly for completists. Unlike Energy Tanks in Metroid or Sub-Tanks in Mega Man, you don't need to hunt for them to increase your capacity, since every boss coughs up a full Heart Container. However, it must be said... anyone can be an expert at Wind Waker. Parry Attacks make it easy to take down even the strongest opponents. (There's also a new bottle item, Link's grandmother's soup, which costs nothing, holds two doses, refills your health fully, and doubles your attack power till you get hit. At least you can only carry one of them....)

[ijdgaf]

1) Soup? Pfft. No matter how enticing Nintendo tries to make potion-like fluids, I'll always prefer filling my bottles with fairies.

2) Concerning Zelda continuity, I think the most sensible approach to take, really (in spite of my fairly practical timeline) is to consider the title thoroughly. We aren't talking about a history. We are talking about a legend. We're talking about stories passed on over a multitude of generations, probably orally, where details get changed many times over in the retelling. The continuity of the games is pretty easy to reconcile when you think of it in these terms. There were originally a small handful of tales, which were elaborated on in different ways, adding and subtracting characters, almost all including Link, Zelda, and Ganon(dorf). Some versions have Link leaving Hyrule afterward, some do not. Some speak of subsequent Links or previous Links, others do not rely on them. Exactly the sort of detail fudging that generally occurs through any great oral storyretelling.

3) .... uh .... Go Adama!

[Nate the Great]

If you're proposing that the Zelda stories are simply that, then it reminds me of the Lord of Rings. Within the mythos Frodo and Bilbo wrote all of it, right? Their perspective is insightful, but no one can possibly keep track of all of those characters and events correctly and simultaneously. Ergo, minor errors.

I prefer Blue Potions.