Nemesis (spoilers) - Finally saw it

[NAHTMMM]

[color=#000000ost_uid0][quoteost_uid0="Sa'ar Chasm"]I want to know how Shinzon managed to extricate his ship from the Enterprise instead of simply dragging it along.[/quoteost_uid0]
He just backed up, possibly angling down-and-back a little. The [iost_uid0]Enterprise[/iost_uid0] hadn't "hooked" into Shinzon's ship any more than an ax hooks into a tree. Right? :S


I thought the movie was passable. Patrick Stewart seemed a little, well, "off" at the reception. And there were some definite plot holes and the like, which I may have already mentioned here. The thing that bugged me the most, I think, was the [iost_uid0]Enterprise[/iost_uid0]'s lack of action in the nebula. It just doodled along while being attacked, and did almost no fighting back and precious little in the way of even [iost_uid0]attempting[/iost_uid0] to evade incoming fire. I realize the warp drive and all was knocked askew by the first shots (how 'bout them shields? They make the Rams' defense look good :eyeroll, but they didn't even try. And later on, when the bridge gets wrecked, everyone just stands around, unconcerned about another hull breach. Isn't that one of the things that the battle bridge is good for? They certainly had the time to shift their operations there.

Here's a major reason why I liked this movie a lot more than others did: I shuddered inwardly a little every time Picard and Shinzon got into a discussion because I dreaded the prospect of hearing a great deal of corniness come out of the TV. But for the most part, I think they pulled those scenes off very well! They should probably have played up those scenes more than they did. They could have gone deeper into the subject of "would Picard have acted as Shinzon did", for example. I don't expect a definitive answer to that question--I'd prefer that they didn't arrive at a facile answer--but that was a major theme, and as such should have gotten more screen time than it did. There were comments and questions I expected to hear from both of the two men that I didn't; those might have been included. They could have cut out some of the other stuff, like Troi's interaction with the Reman guy, to make room for that.[/colorost_uid0]

[Sa'ar Chasm]

[color=#000000ost_uid0][quoteost_uid0]He just backed up, possibly angling down-and-back a little. The Enterprise hadn't "hooked" into Shinzon's ship any more than an ax hooks into a tree. Right?[/quoteost_uid0]

In order to separate the two ships, there needed to be a force acting on the Enterprise in the opposite direction of the Scimitar's direction of travel. Given the amount of damage visible when the two ships finally separated, I'm certain that they were significantly intermingled. They were sitting in space; what was pulling on the Enterprise? Did someone throw out a space anchor? (Just randomised, undirected sarcasm, not meant to be aimed at you, NAH)[/colorost_uid0]

[Zeke]

[color=#000000ost_uid0]Space anchors work by hooking into the surrounding space air.[/colorost_uid0]

[NAHTMMM]

[color=#000000ost_uid0]No offense taken, Sa'ar. I'm puzzled by your logic, though. How is the Scimitar designed to get around normally? It surely wasn't pushing against a handy ship for the whole trip to the nebula? I think it would be using thrusters or an impulse engine for sublight travel as circumstances dictate, neither of which require a nearby ship to push against. And I really don't recall the intricacies of the scene that well, but I don't think that anything was shown that implied that the Scimitar had snagged anything major on the Enterprise (or vice versa). Maybe static cling would hold them together ([bost_uid0]Panicked Helmsman:[/bost_uid0] Aaah! Shinzon, I can't shake 'em! [bost_uid0]Shinzon:[/bost_uid0] [insert endorsement for an anti-cling fabric softener here] :smile, but I don't know what else would. Other than the Enterprise continuing to push forward, but there are several ways to get around that. Suddenly changing direction or converting one's tractor beams into repulsors, for example.



Those space anchors are nice, but they can cause trouble. Archer keeps having nightmares in which the Enterprise's anchor doesn't catch firmly and the ship keeps going, with the anchor ripping out a strip of space atmosphere from Pluto clear to Mars.[/colorost_uid0]

[Sa'ar Chasm]

[color=#000000ost_uid0][quoteost_uid0]How is the Scimitar designed to get around normally? It surely wasn't pushing against a handy ship for the whole trip to the nebula? [/quoteost_uid0]

That wasn't what I was getting at. If you try to pull two things apart by holding them in midair and only pulling on one of them, you won't have much success. Unless Picard ordered full reverse, this above scenario is akin to what Shinzon tried. An impact like what we witnessed should have left the ships firmly wedged together.

All this physics is making my head hurt. *goes back to his chemistry*[/colorost_uid0]

[Nan]

[color=#000000ost_uid0][quoteost_uid0="Zeke"]My mistake -- I think it's understandable, though, since you said that "quote" answered the bulk of Sa'ar's questions.[/quoteost_uid0]
I can see what you mean. I was generally referring to the two's dubious history with the C-word, and Berman's in particular, since he's the guy before the network when it comes top the decision-making hierarchy. Though, to be fair, Trek has never been all that careful about continuity.

[quoteost_uid0]We probably shouldn't get into the [iost_uid0]Enterprise[/iost_uid0] continuity debate. Â Could get messy. [/quoteost_uid0]
It bothers me when the PTBs talk about how they're "science fiction," yet make stupid errors a high school student could catch. And maul continuity. Granted, certain differences can be expected, there being an unforseen (in the 60s) boom in tech development, etc.

[quoteost_uid0]What scares me is that one of the current staff on the show used to [iost_uid0]be[/iost_uid0] science advisor -- a title that should have been revoked the moment he submitted "Demon."[/quoteost_uid0]
AGHK! Do not speak its naaaaame! Ouch, who was that? It wasn't Andre Bormanis, was it?

[quoteost_uid0]Oh, I'm not saying RB has no responsibility for script problems. Â I just find it odd that almost no one seems to give Logan any responsibility for them.[/quoteost_uid0]
It's a little hard to blame Logan, since he's a "newb". Still... good lord. "Reman"? Gahh! Wasn't he part of some big, respected project?

Here's a question nobody can answer satisfactorily: even if Shinzon WAS a precise duplicate of Picard, why the frell would he have an English accent? Where is the logic?

[quoteost_uid0]Sorry to be so harsh with you, Nan -- you were just the one who happened to hit one of my Trek hot buttons this time. Â And to prove I'm not a humourless basher-basher, let it be known far and wide that I found this Trek BBS post hilarious.[/quoteost_uid0]
It's okay. It weirded me out a little, but I understand where you're coming from. It did sound like your typical B&B bash. When bashing, I try to have very specific reasons and not end up mouthing vague fan displeasure. Even if Braga is a big walking target.

Must..... RESIST!

[quoteost_uid0]YABB?[/quoteost_uid0]
[bost_uid0]Y[/bost_uid0]et
[bost_uid0]A[/bost_uid0]nother
[bost_uid0]B[/bost_uid0]raga (or [bost_uid0]B[/bost_uid0]erman)
[bost_uid0]B[/bost_uid0]ashing

Acronyms are fun. [/colorost_uid0]

[Zeke]

[color=#000000ost_uid0][quoteost_uid0="Nan"]And maul continuity.[/quoteost_uid0]
And this is exactly [iost_uid0]why[/iost_uid0] we shouldn't get into the continuity debate.

[quoteost_uid0]Ouch, who was that? It wasn't Andre Bormanis, was it?[/quoteost_uid0]

That's the guy. Â Interesting fact: he did both ENT episodes with "Crossing" in their titles.

[quoteost_uid0]It's a little hard to blame Logan, since he's a "newb".[/quoteost_uid0]

I don't see why it's hard to blame script problems on the guy who [iost_uid0]wrote the script[/iost_uid0].

[quoteost_uid0]Still... good lord. "Reman"? Gahh! Wasn't he part of some big, respected project?[/quoteost_uid0]

[iost_uid0]Gladiator[/iost_uid0]. Â I haven't seen it, but I hear it's good.

[quoteost_uid0]Here's a question nobody can answer satisfactorily: even if Shinzon WAS a precise duplicate of Picard, why the frell would he have an English accent?[/quoteost_uid0]

Yep, I read the strip. Â That's what I meant by "second time" earlier.

[quoteost_uid0]It's okay. It weirded me out a little, but I understand where you're coming from.[/quoteost_uid0]

Still, sorry to weird you out. Â I guess I was even harsher than I thought.

[quoteost_uid0]Even if Braga is a big walking target.[/quoteost_uid0]

Well, yeah. Â Even I couldn't resist doing that one top ten list....[/colorost_uid0]

[NAHTMMM]

[color=#000000ost_uid0][quoteost_uid0="Sa'ar Chasm"][quoteost_uid0]How is the Scimitar designed to get around normally? It surely wasn't pushing against a handy ship for the whole trip to the nebula? [/quoteost_uid0]

That wasn't what I was getting at. Â If you try to pull two things apart by holding them in midair and only pulling on one of them, you won't have much success. Â Unless Picard ordered full reverse, this above scenario is akin to what Shinzon tried. Â An impact like what we witnessed should have left the ships firmly wedged together.

All this physics is making my head hurt. Â *goes back to his chemistry*[/quoteost_uid0]
All right, I think I see what you mean. It's a fair observation. Maybe Shinzon ordered some of his henchmen to "get out and push". Which raises another question: Does the Romulan version of Starfleet have its own version of "redshirts"? :smile:[/colorost_uid0]

[Zeke]

[color=#000000ost_uid0]Does now. Remans.[/colorost_uid0]

[Sa'ar Chasm]

[color=#000000ost_uid0][quoteost_uid0]Acronyms are fun.[/quoteost_uid0]

The immediate ancestor of YABB is YATI, which stands for "Yet Another Technical (or Treknical) Inconsistency (Inaccuracy)." This dates to the mid-90s at least, and possibly earlier.

[quoteost_uid0]It's a little hard to blame Logan, since he's a "newb". Still... good lord. "Reman"? [/quoteost_uid0]

"Remus" goes back to (t)OS (although it was called Romii on Spock's screen).[/colorost_uid0]

[Nan]

[color=#000000ost_uid0][quoteost_uid0="Zeke"]And this is exactly [iost_uid0]why[/iost_uid0] we shouldn't get into the continuity debate. [/quoteost_uid0]
Heh heh heh.

[quoteost_uid0]That's the guy. Â Interesting fact: he did both ENT episodes with "Crossing" in their titles.[/quoteost_uid0]
Another interesting fact: a characte ronthe X-Files wa snamed after him. Season 8: "Via Negativa."

[quoteost_uid0]I don't see why it's hard to blame script problems on the guy who [iost_uid0]wrote the script[/iost_uid0].[/quoteost_uid0]
Yeah, but for a feature film there are almost ALWAYS more than one writer on the script.

For instance, the story credit goes to Brent Spiner, John Logan, and Rick Berman. That means they wer ethe ones who came up with the overall story but not the script.

The actual script was credited to Logan. However, Berman is listed as a producer, which means he probably co-wrote in addition to watching finances, etc. The exec producer was a dude named Marty Hornstein, who I'm not familiar with.

Hmmm... maybe THAT'S how the Reman thing slipped through. Although he WAS on Insurrection... and First Contact and Undiscovered Country. Hunh.

[quoteost_uid0][iost_uid0]Gladiator[/iost_uid0]. Â I haven't seen it, but I hear it's good.[/quoteost_uid0]
It was [iost_uid0]okay[/iost_uid0], good art design in segments, but overall... ehh. Didn't hold a candle to Crouching Tiger. Stupid Academy. [/rant]

[quoteost_uid0]Yep, I read the strip. Â That's what I meant by "second time" earlier.[/quoteost_uid0]
Ahhhh... (this strip, for the uninitiated)

[quoteost_uid0]Still, sorry to weird you out. Â I guess I was even harsher than I thought.[/quoteost_uid0]
Probably not. I'm kind of sensitive.

[quoteost_uid0]Well, yeah. Â Even I couldn't resist doing that one top ten list....[/quoteost_uid0]
Hehehehehehe...[/colorost_uid0]

[taya17]

[color=#000000ost_uid0]My Nemesis review, written a whiles back when I first watched it:

My Hysterical Nemesis Review


[quoteost_uid0="Michiel"]B4 was cool. [/quoteost_uid0]
B5 was cooler


I'm all for B&B bashing. Do we even need a reason?[/colorost_uid0]

[Things Are Good]

[color=#000000ost_uid0]Out of curiousity, how would you have preferred Shinzon speak? With a nice, patriotic American accent? With a wacky Australian accent? In a different language?

When you come down to it, everyone speaks with an accent. You just don't consider your way of speaking an accent because it's normal to you.

In essence: Shinzon's accent doesn't matter.[/colorost_uid0]

[Nan]

[color=#000000ost_uid0]Patriotic American would be meaningless to me, not being American. Australian is a variant of English.

I would have preferred something that sounded like he actually grew up speaking another language. The only reason he'd have an English accent was if the Romulans had made him emulate Picard's accent via speech therapy/training. They'd obviously given up on Shinzon since they sent him to work in a mine, so that's out as a possibility.

What was even the point of bothering with an English accent? A Romulan accent would have been better: Sirtis and Jurasik managed it fine with their alien characters.

In essence: it was a dumb gaffe.

No Vulcans on the writing staff, I guess.[/colorost_uid0]

[catalina_marina]

[color=#000000ost_uid0][quoteost_uid0]A Romulan accent would have been better[/quoteost_uid0]
Actually, I think it should have been a Reman accent (although I don't know what that sounds like).
A cousin of my father's moved to the North just a couple of years ago, but she speaks with a perfect Northern accent already. Which proves accents tend to change quickly into the one you're completely surrounded by.[/colorost_uid0]

[Zeke]

[color=#000000ost_uid0][quoteost_uid0="taya17"]I'm all for B&B bashing. Do we even need a reason?[/quoteost_uid0]
[bost_uid0][iost_uid0][uost_uid0]

YES.

[/uost_uid0][/iost_uid0][/bost_uid0][/colorost_uid0]

[Nan]

[color=#000000ost_uid0]I'd say he's right on that one.[/colorost_uid0]

[ijdgaf]

[color=#000000ost_uid0]But it's just so [iost_uid0]EASY[/iost_uid0] to make fun of Brinky and the Bermain [/colorost_uid0]

[Zeke]

[color=#000000ost_uid0]It saddens me how close you came to climbing out of the pit of basherdom, only to be knocked back in by a single episode whose consequences we don't even really know yet. (This has been your official Possibly-Accurate-But-Definitely-Pompous Comment for July 25, 2003.)[/colorost_uid0]

[Nan]

[color=#000000ost_uid0]*snerf*[/colorost_uid0]