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View Poll Results: If you were/are registered as a U. S. voter, who would/did you choose?
John Kerry (Democrat) 27 52.94%
George W. Bush (Republican) 17 33.33%
"Go ahead. THROW YOUR VOTE AWAY!" 7 13.73%
Voters: 51. You may not vote on this poll

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  #101  
Old 11-08-2004, 06:43 AM
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Now, of course, I have not established the personhood of the fetus, so I will: It grows, it uses energy, it develops, and it has the potential to produce fertile offspring with other members of homo sapiens. To wit, it shares every major trait of a newborn or a pre-lingual two-year-old.
If I were a soulless devil's advocate, I would now throw in that except for the last thing (which is Potential to Complexity), there isn't much of a difference between an early fetus and any other cluster of cells. Sure, it lives, but so does the mold in my petri dish.

This is an old philosophical problem. At what point does the child cease to be simply a part of the mother and become an indepedant life in it's own right? It is a hard question, but the morality of this, I leave up to the mother. I don't know if anyone should be getting an abortion for this or that reason, but I feel they should have the right to do so. The laws are (or should be) a set of rules that deals with the individuals place within a society. Does society at large have a say over whether or not someone should have a child, moreso than that person herself? I see this as far more morally reprehensive.

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We could go further into ensoulment, but do we really want the law to do that? The last time the Supreme Court ruled on personhood, it stated that black people were 3/5 of a person. Women, for many of the same reasons, couldn't vote until the '20s, and many of the same issues apply today in gay marriage.
I agree that this is a difficult topic and laws pertaining to it are bound to be unsatisfactory, but does this mean we have to err on the side of the greatest possible restriction? Surely, a lot of abortions are made for medical reasons; do you want to condemn all these people to die or suffer lifelong complications from a miscarriage? Granted, not all cases are so clear cut; indeed, the majority is not. But outlawing abortion, you're opening up a whole new area of criminal behaviour. People who want abortions will get them, but I'd rather they go to a clean hospital and have it done by a professional than having to look for a less than legal alternative. (Compare to drugs...I don't personally use any, but look how much the core problem is amplified by driving everything underground.)

Also, I don't mind a good political debate as long as it's within this dedicated thread. When you have namecalling all over the board, then the problem starts.

Gatac
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  #102  
Old 11-08-2004, 11:15 AM
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I was for Kerry. Simple reason, actually. Four years ago I didn't think Bush had what it took to be a good President. And in the past four years, he has confirmed that suspicion.

OK, the US gets attacked by Al Qaeda, and Bush sends troops to kick their asses. All well and good, until he decides "While we're at it, let's invade some place that has absolutely nothing to do with our current terror problem." Sure, (faulty) intelligence suggested he might have WMDs, but if Saddam tried anything at that point, it would be like holding up a sign to the world saying "NUKE ME." He was contained, and a threat to no other nation. Yes, he was an evil man, but war and armed occupation should always be a last resort. In the meanwhile, domestic policy, which should be the most important thing to the leader of a nation, has effectively been run by various hyper-conservative members of his staff. Don't think I'm bashing the right wing here, I'd bitch just as much if a Democrat in office left all his policy decisions to hyper-liberal staffers. Said hyper-conservatives then proceeded to help push such things as the Patriot Act through Congress while holding up Bush's education initiative, which is one of the few things I find good about him. What's Bush's repsonse to this? Absolutely nothing, just goes on playing Napoleon.

And that's the short version.
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  #103  
Old 11-08-2004, 12:47 PM
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An interesting thought I had was: if 9/11 had happened two months later, do you not think people would be far, far more incesned worldwide?
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  #104  
Old 11-08-2004, 08:11 PM
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As most of the rest of the world, i voted for John Kerry. I believe honesty is crucial for a politician, and Bush was not honest at all, especially in the iraq issue. I donīt like the way he treates us (i mean, all the non U.S. world) I know that the United States is the world leader nowadays, but we deserve a little more respect. The U.N. has been insulted once and again by this administration...

Well, now Bush has won, so all I can say is...GO BUSH! :cry: :?
  #105  
Old 11-09-2004, 04:34 AM
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Gatac, you soulless devil's advocate, you!

I want to start out by voiceing [sic?] my support for laws that allow abortions in cases in which the mother's life has a high chance of being, well, ended, by the act of birth. It's not something I'm completely comfortable with, but makes for a decent compromise. It would still wipe out more than 98% of abortions here in the states (that's according to the Allan Guttmacher Institute, I believe), so I'll take it. Unfortunately, pro-abortion politicians refuse to bend even that far. (Side note: I refer to the two sides as pro and anti abortion, not pro-life and pro-choice. Both are misnomers; choicers because they are supporting a very specific choice, not gun choice or school choice, lifers because most of them support the death penalty)

Bloody... my cookies are done, then bed. Must finish this off tommorrow.
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  #106  
Old 11-09-2004, 07:45 AM
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I'm only a soulless devil's advocate when I argue the moral dimension of this; else, I'm purely being practical.

Not to pounce on it too heavily, but making drugs illegal has driven the whole community underground. People die daily because there is no medical oversight, because the dealers are criminals, and because nobody makes sure that the wares are actually good. Not to mention that it's a massive black hole for money to actively prosecute each and every one.

My proposition is thus to cancel the war on drugs and use the cash to take over the legal distribution. Think about what a government-run (or atleast supervised) drug distribution system could do: Collect taxes, guarantee the purity (and thus, relative safety), and probably still have much lower prices than the criminal dealers. Heck, you could pretty much drive an entire sort of criminals out of the country. On the other hand, medical supervision (and, I dunno? Ration cards?) could help to keep the massively deletrous effects of drugs somewhat in check. This doesn't even have to apply to the really hardcore stuff: think about how many people you'd bring away from the underground just by making the (controlled) sale of marijuana legal. After all, the real scoundrels are the dealers, and what could be more effective than driving them out of business?

What does this have to do with abortion? Well, in a sense, outlawing it would do to abortion what it has already done to drugs - drive them underground. If you ban abortions, lots of women will still want them, but they'll obtain them from less reputable sources. This is a massive health risk, and if you think abortion kills a lot of innocent lives now, consider how many more potential mothers it will take when it's outlawed.

One of the fundamental problems is that you cannot destroy the *idea* of abortion, same as you cannot destroy the *idea* of drugs. The cat's out of the bag and has been for some time. We can either try to whack it and see it jump over the fence, never to return, or we can invite it into our home and make sure it behaves.

(Damn, that was a weird analogy.)

Gatac
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  #107  
Old 11-09-2004, 01:48 PM
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I have to say that if 9/11 had happened in november (on the same date) it would have caused a more worldwide outrage....btw, what is 5MV doing for Thursday? (11/11/04)
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  #108  
Old 11-09-2004, 08:03 PM
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Here in Argentina, abortion is illegal and every day lots of girls die becuase thet get their abortions in unsafe conditions. I am pro abortion if it is performed in the firsts trimester of pregnancy, when it is not "alive". As I see it, is not different from other pregnancy controls such as the "day after" pill. ANd in that way, you prevent many girls from dying.

Of course, it would be better if there was enough education to make everyone conscious about contraceptives and the consecuences of unsafe sex, but thatīs another issue.
  #109  
Old 11-09-2004, 08:28 PM
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Don't take this as an attack post -- I'm just answering some of the points you made.

Quote:
Originally Posted by marplanauta
I am pro abortion if it is performed in the firsts trimester of pregnancy, when it is not "alive".
In what sense are you using the word "alive"? Biologically, no one questions that a fetus is alive by that point. For example, its heart is beating within the first three weeks, let alone months. There's a good timeline on this page.

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As I see it, is not different from other pregnancy controls such as the "day after" pill.
The morning after pill acts within the very, very brief interval where there is some question whether the fetus is alive, so that's a more complicated case. Nonetheless, a lot of pro-lifers do consider it morally equivalent to abortion. (On a pickier note, I think "pregnancy controls" is a very misleading term for either abortion or the morning after pill. They don't control pregnancy, they end it; one might as well be honest about that.)

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And in that way, you prevent many girls from dying.
This is one of the pro-choice arguments that's hardest to dispute -- if you do, it sounds like you're saying what happened to these women is okay. Obviously I don't feel that way, but I also don't think it's sufficient justification. If you try to rob a bank, you may be shot in the attempt. That doesn't mean robbing banks should be legal.

I guess it's obvious from this post that unlike some people who posted earlier in the thread, I do think abortion is an important enough issue to determine who you vote for....
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  #110  
Old 11-09-2004, 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Valium
I have to say that if 9/11 had happened in november (on the same date) it would have caused a more worldwide outrage....btw, what is 5MV doing for Thursday? (11/11/04)
I hadn't thought about it. What do we usually do?

2003: A few words on the subject, link to Monkee's site
2002: No Nov. 11 update
2001: Two new fivers, no comment on the date
2000: New fiver, no comment on the date

Hmm. Maybe this is something I should work on.

Btw, I'm not sure I can picture more worldwide outrage than we had on 9/11.
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  #111  
Old 11-09-2004, 08:56 PM
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In what sense are you using the word "alive"? Biologically, no one questions that a fetus is alive by that point. For example, its heart is beating within the first three weeks, let alone months
Warning: We are approaching the border of the (very) long and tedious sentience/sapience/consciousness discussion. I will follow and argue even that point, I just want to point out that I tend to leave this fuzzy for a good reason.

Quote:
The morning after pill acts within the very, very brief interval where there is some question whether the fetus is alive, so that's a more complicated case. Nonetheless, a lot of pro-lifers do consider it morally equivalent to abortion.
As do I, actually - let us not mince terms here. Prevention is before conception, abortion is after. The moral value of each of those is up for discussion, though, as are the various methods.

Quote:
On a pickier note, I think "pregnancy controls" is a very misleading term for either abortion or the morning after pill. They don't control pregnancy, they end it; one might as well be honest about that.
This is one of my favourite bones to pick with what is commonly labelled as "liberal", the doublespeak. I hate political correctness with a passion, and getting the PC-minded furious through rigorous usage of non-PC terms is my favourite pasttime.

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This is one of the pro-choice arguments that's hardest to dispute -- if you do, it sounds like you're saying what happened to these women is okay. Obviously I don't feel that way, but I also don't think it's sufficient justification. If you try to rob a bank, you may be shot in the attempt. That doesn't mean robbing banks should be legal.
This is one of those false dilemma logic fallacies I (occasionally) also submit to: it's always either "ban all abortion!" or "allow all abortion!". True, it's easier to argue each way, and the law is not known for being overly flexible and useful when it has to nail down details, but there's shades of grey.

Gatac
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  #112  
Old 11-10-2004, 12:20 AM
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IMO, I would like to see putting 5MNG's "The Wounded" on the front page. I think it best sums up the Cold War veteran's feelings. Its also my favorite episode. There are other 'veteran' shows, but "The Wounded" is the best.
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  #113  
Old 11-10-2004, 12:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatac
Quote:
In what sense are you using the word "alive"? Biologically, no one questions that a fetus is alive by that point. For example, its heart is beating within the first three weeks, let alone months
Warning: We are approaching the border of the (very) long and tedious sentience/sapience/consciousness discussion. I will follow and argue even that point, I just want to point out that I tend to leave this fuzzy for a good reason.
The whole "when life begins" debate, IMHO, really determines the morality of abortion.

I've heard a few dominant philosophies on the subject:

When does Human Life* Begin?

At Conception:
By this definition, all abortion would be immoral, and so would some morning-after pills when it prevents a fertilized zygote from developing.
At Birth:
By this definition, all abortion would be legal, (and so would pills) as human life begins at birth, not before.
Sometime Between Conception and Birth:
By this definition, abortion would be legal or illegal based on the developmental stage of the fetus.
Gradually begins throughout, no particular breaking point between alive and not:
Abortion in this case would still be debateable, as the fetus is not "entirely" human, but can be more or less so depending on the development, this would likely also be where abortion would be legal or illegal based on the developmental stage of the fetus.

*Note: Biologically, the cell is alive even before it is fertilized, but so are the millions of bacteria floating around in our air.

Usually, which category one falls in to is determined largely (or entirely) on one's religious beliefs.

Click Here for a Table of Abortion Law around the World

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Originally Posted by Wowbagger
1) Xeroc, I mentioned Best of the Web by James Taranto because that is how I found Good News Watch, which, I believe, was only entitled Good News Watch on that page. Arthur Chrenkoff, I thought, called it something else on his blog.
Oh, I actually found it elsewhere, but I see what you mean.
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  #114  
Old 11-10-2004, 12:48 AM
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Actually, this second part of my response is not going to take as long as I thought, now that Zeke's stolen my thunder on the philosophy of law point.

I prefer to have the law legislate scientific questions based purely based on science. The fetus is an independant human life from conception on. Thus, as a human being, it is protected by our 14th amendment. I don't know what country you hail from, Gatac, so the same may or may not apply to you, but that's as far as the argument needs to go in the States.

Now, for women's deaths. I'll be generous and give the number floated by Ellen Goodman and the National Abortion Rights Action League (now called NARAL Pro-Choice America), which was 10,000 pregnant women dying each year from back-alley abortions. (This number is arguably refuted at http://www.straightdope.com/columns/040528.html) Frankly, that's a huge drop from 1,500,000 fetal deaths plus a few hundred women's deaths from "safe, legal, and rare" abortions. Once it is illegal, of course, and now that awareness of the abortion issue is so high, it is likely that massive abortion prevention programs would snap into place around the country. Planned Parenthood may even be forced to hire counselors who counsel!

That ends my first response. Next:

As I've said, I won't insist on banning all abortions. Just the 99.3% of them, the abortions of convenience. Don't forget the 250,000-strong community of people on the adoption waiting list.

As for the morning-after pill, anti-abortion advocates generally ignore the field, not least because its an area on which society is even more touchy than abortion. But you're right; illegalizing the vast majority of abortions would also illegalize the morning-after pill (though not condoms or spermicides or what-have-you).

One thing I've never understood, and maybe Vedra can shed some light on this for me: why birth? I mean, if it has the features of a human, isn't it human, whether or not it's attached to someone else by a cord? Why not call it a human at 1 or 8 or 12 years old? I am honestly confused by this.

Now I'm starting to feel guilty about ignoring the other sub-topic here. I'll post something about terrorism or tax cuts or something by month's end.

We have people on fiveminute from Argentina? Go team!

Also, last point (I promise!): Anyone know any good left-wing blogs? I'm looking for something to complement my daily OpinionJournal intake of +5000 words. My theory in life is that all news is biased and the only way to make a good decision is to read the most biased stuff you can find and balance out the extremes, so this is somewhat important.
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  #115  
Old 11-10-2004, 02:08 AM
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Quote:
One thing I've never understood, and maybe Vedra can shed some light on this for me: why birth?
I'll try not to take that as a cheap shot against me. Anyway, my point earlier in the thread was that, instead of fetuses not being human yet, or always, whatever, that arguement is pointless, of course it's human. My point was that fetuses are not special. Or at least, they shouldn't be. They're is no reason they should be. My argument for allowing abortion is based on sentience. Nobody questions euthanizing a dog, apparently because they're non-sentient (or semi-sentient, I guess it depends on your dog-philosophy.) So, if fetus's are not sentient, at least up to a stage of development, it should be okay. But another argument, which I agree with more, is that very early abortion is okay simply because the fetus isn't even fetus yet, it's just a clump of cells. An abortion would be like removing your tonsils. That comes out a lot more heartless than I meant it to be...oh well.
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  #116  
Old 11-10-2004, 02:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wowbagger
We have people on fiveminute from Argentina? Go team!
We've had Argentinian fans for years now -- who do you think got us that www.sci-fivers.com.ar domain name? (Hi Leandro!)

Quote:
Also, last point (I promise!): Anyone know any good left-wing blogs? I'm looking for something to complement my daily OpinionJournal intake of +5000 words. My theory in life is that all news is biased and the only way to make a good decision is to read the most biased stuff you can find and balance out the extremes, so this is somewhat important.
YouAreDumb is a fun one with a clever concept. And of course Michael "Someone PLEASE shut me up" Moore has a blog....

Interesting posts, guys. As you've probably guessed, I subscribe to the "human life begins at conception" view, and my reasoning is simple: where else do you draw the line? A human doesn't come together like a jigsaw puzzle, where at a certain point you can say this is a complete puzzle, and one piece ago it wasn't. To use a metaphor from my field (math), the development of a human life is a continuous function; there's no jump or break where the fetus suddenly becomes a baby. The only place we can put the marker is at conception, because right there a single, unique organism is formed that didn't exist before.
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  #117  
Old 11-10-2004, 03:28 AM
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Leandro rules!

That is all.

(Leandro rules!)
  #118  
Old 11-10-2004, 08:00 AM
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Oh damn now I feel I need to contribute. my plan to avoid controversy has failed...

Zeke, I totally agree, "human life begins at conception" is my philosophy too, however the reason people have abortions are not always because they just "want to get rid of it." Financially they may just not be able to care for the baby, or they may be health reasons not to give birth. In the end, it's up to the individual woman who is pregnant. It's HER body that is under discussion and that is a HUGE responsibility.

And even more controversially, however a man feels on the subject of abortion, no man can EVER really know what that woman is going through. I know people who have had abortions for totally valid reasons and whether I agreed with them or not I respected that is was THEIR choice, and no one else's.

That is my view. Sorry if anyone disagrees.
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  #119  
Old 11-10-2004, 08:04 AM
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I should point out though that I also agree with a huge chunk of what wowbagger said, and that prevention is "better than cure" so to speak...
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  #120  
Old 11-10-2004, 10:55 AM
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perhaps (as marplanauta said) a better policy would be better sex education....?
Also, November the 11th isn't just about Vietnam. Perhaps we could have a lack of posting for a while on the forum? (at 11:00 GMT, perhaps?)....just a suggestion
Also, maybe 5MV should have some suitable poem or fragment on the front page...personally, I do not believe it is a time for mirth at all. And I agree with Zeke.
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