Baw Fivers - Home to BaW, BaS, BoV, and others

[NAHTMMM]

[color=#000000ost_uid0]Not to belittle anyone's emotional pain here, but Ashcroft lost because Jean was bright enough to announce she was running for Mel's sake (or whatever her wording was) and then sit tight and let the sympathy vote pour in. But yeah, that's gotta be embarrassing for Ashcroft.[/colorost_uid0]

[Nan]

[color=#000000ost_uid0]That I knew.

But he STILL lost to a dead guy. [/colorost_uid0]

[Saxamaphone]

[color=#000000ost_uid0]Guess the dead man scared the people Missouri less [/colorost_uid0]

[catalina_marina]

[color=#000000ost_uid0][quoteost_uid0]"Marseille" in English is "mar-say."[/quoteost_uid0]
Then it's hopeless. There's no way to explain.

[quoteost_uid0]By "ij" you mean something like "ayee"?[/quoteost_uid0]
Nope. But I guess it's the closest thing.

Lost to a dead guy? We had something like that recently. His name is Pim Fortuyn. Very extreme, very dead, very much elected to minister president (AFTER he died). Of course it didn't last long, but still.[/colorost_uid0]

[PointyHairedJedi]

[color=#000000ost_uid0]That was all over the news here a while back. Frankly more scary was what (nearly) happened in France. The BNP getting worryingly high numbers of votes in Oldham (among other places) pales in comparison.

Nan - Something we can agree on at last! Wasn't there also some chemical weapons treaty that they ducked out of? And something to do with nuclear arms reduction too, if I remember rightly. Maybe his next election campaign will feature the slogan "Bush - Making the World a More Dangerous Place".[/colorost_uid0]

[mudshark]

[quoteost_uid0="catalina_marina"][color=#000000ost_uid0][quoteost_uid0]"Marseille" in English is "mar-say."[/quoteost_uid0]
Then it's hopeless. There's no way to explain.

[quoteost_uid0]By "ij" you mean something like "ayee"?[/quoteost_uid0]
Nope. But I guess it's the closest thing.[/colorost_uid0][/quoteost_uid0]
[color=#000000ost_uid0]As I understand it, the word "apartheid" was pronounced, at least in South Africa, as if it were "apart-hate" or "apart-heydh" (to English-speaking ears.) The [iost_uid0]ei[/iost_uid0] sound falls somewhere between a long A and a long I sound.

Growing up, though, I always heard it pronounced like "apart-hide".[/colorost_uid0]

[Nan]

[color=#000000ost_uid0]Pim Fortuyn? He was assassinated, wasn't he? And wasn't he, like, a fascist?

Ah, fascism, AKA "national socialism". It's great! unless, you're, y'know, gay, Jewish, Black, female, or poor!

What was that about NAtional soZIalists I saw recently...? :dead:

Fascists suck, like Le Pen. The French word for "wanker" escapes me.

[quoteost_uid0]Nan - Something we can agree on at last![/quoteost_uid0]
The only thing I remember us disagreeing on before was David Lynch's Dune.

What can I say, I have a bit of a soft spot for Pommies. [/colorost_uid0]

[Opium]

[color=#000000ost_uid0]Okay, I think I'm a little indecisive, because yesterdays results were rather different...
Economic Left/Right: -5.25
Authoritarian/Libertarian: -3.74

Bush isnt a president, he's a puppet, a lost son, and, oh, that's right, he really wasnt voted in anyways. Bush is selfish, he cares more about rich Americans than anyone else, he likes "patriotism" because it makes rich people richer, he dislikes Canadains because we have different, democratic, freedom-based, caring system that WORKS. Same with Germany and France.

And the campaign to slander France. Hmmm, let's see, who has had war, real, serious, bloody, long-lasting war on their soil in the last 60 years? France. They know the price. Americans dont. Americans had a great crime commited agaist them when 9/11 happened, but that does not mean you should automatically support everything American.

Or maybe I'll start supporting everything from Sierra Leone, because they have to face terror much greater than Americans every single day. They have to see it. They have to live it. Does Bush care about them? Nope. He isnt about anti-terror, he's pro-making-rich-Americans-rich. He's abused 9/11 and its victims for his own purposes.[/colorost_uid0]

[taya17]

[color=#000000ost_uid0][quoteost_uid0="Opium"]Americans had a great crime commited agaist them when 9/11 happened, but that does not mean you should automatically support everything American.[/quoteost_uid0]
I totally agree on this. Just because 9/11 happened doesn't mean that everything in America's interest is automatically everything in the world's best interests!

@ Bush[/colorost_uid0]

[Captain Galactic]

[color=#000000ost_uid0]My conservative blood is pumping! Anger...rising...REPUBLICAN SMASH! REPUBLICAN CRUSH! REPUBLICAN...

...ooops...I'm not the hulk.

[quoteost_uid0]Hmmm, let's see, who has had war, etc, etc[/quoteost_uid0]
(my copy & paste thing is screwed up, sorry)

Hmmm, let's see, who would be speaking german now if the U.S. hadn't interveined?

Hmmm, let's see, who planted trees all along their roads because the Nazis were feeling hot marching in the sun?

Hmmm, let's see, who surrendered?

And the reason no-one has invaded the U.S. openly is because we'd know about it! To move an entire army, they'd have to use big planes and big ships. Big metal things with 2,000 people on them move slowly. Certainly slow enough so that we can bomb or otherwise cut off the invasion with nearly 100% Â stop..i...ness.
And despite some, now apparant, political divisions, Canada and Mexico aren't going to stage an invasion anytime soon.

[quoteost_uid0]he wasn't voted in anyway[/quoteost_uid0]

There are two usual arguments for this.

1. The hanging chad /"I meant to vote for Gore!" stuff.

Those people voted for the person they punched for. Doesn't matter their intent. If I see some gum on the wheel of my car, and drive back and forth to try and get it off, and there just happens to be a man right in front of the tire, and you roll back and forth across his body, you still are charged for murder, or at least manslaughter. And they should have drunk more coffee in the morning. They should be able to punch a little hole in a card. And they should get some glasses.

2. The supreme court stuff

Gore would not accept that he lost, so he kept petitioning for recounts. Because of Al's stubborn disbelief, the American public (and the world) was duped into believing that Bush was not voted in.

And no offence Canada, but we can choose our own doctors, and the doctors aren't paid for by the government. We can switch healthcare plans. You call socialization freedom?

The landmine thing.

I'm not sure if we use landmines, but the company you keep doesn't influence you, for the most part. I'm still conservative, even spending my free time here. So don't go writing off America as a barbaric nation just because we didn't sign a treaty. Maybe Russia and China didn't like it for different reasons than the U.S.

And John Ashcroft...you're completly right. He's a lunatic. The patriot act bans model rockets! You can have my rockets the same time you get my guns-when you pry them from my cold dead hands.

He lost to a dead guy. That's why he's pro-life.[/colorost_uid0]

[PointyHairedJedi]

[color=#000000ost_uid0]This says it all really. If there's one thing Bush is big on (apart from war) it's hypocrisy.

[quoteost_uid0]Hmmm, let's see, who would be speaking german now if the U.S. hadn't interveined?

Hmmm, let's see, who planted trees all along their roads because the Nazis were feeling hot marching in the sun?

Hmmm, let's see, who surrendered?[/quoteost_uid0]

Yes, I seem to remember though that it took a [iost_uid0]direct attack[/iost_uid0] on American soil by the Japanese before the US deigned to enter the fray. Never mind the fact that an evil fascist dictatorship was intent on taking over the the whole of Europe and Russia. How much quicker would the war have been over if the US had joined in two years earlier? How many less lives would have been lost? How many less Jews would have been murdered? As it was Britain came perrilously close to losing. I guess in a perverted way we can thank the then Japanese govenrment for bringing the US in at all.

And of course, lets not forget that the US remains the ONLY nation in the world to date that has dropped nuclear weapons in war time. On two heavily populated cities no less, where the effects of the radiation are still being felt today.

And now we come to the French - America's next military target if the Republicans get their way. Let's skip the history and the fact that their army wasn't really any match for the Axis forces in the first place. Let's skip the fact that there were collaberators as there were in every other country that had been invaded. This [iost_uid0]really[/iost_uid0] is all about the U.N. not rolling over and doing what the US wanted it to, though of course it was in fact Tony Blair who persuaded Dubya to take that route - George's first choice was to bypass them completely. Something that he seemed to forget once the lambasting of the French began. Yes, the French's position that they were going to say no to any Resoloution is on the face of it unreasonable, but not when you consider the fact that they rightly saw that the US was going to declare war on Iraq no matter what, in which case I feel that they should stand up and take a bow for refusing to let the U.N. be [iost_uid0]used[/iost_uid0] in such a manner.

[quoteost_uid0]1. The hanging chad /"I meant to vote for Gore!" stuff.[/quoteost_uid0]

Frankly, it's about time the whole freakin' US electoral system was changed. It's anything BUT democratic when a nation gets a president that the majority of the voters didn't actualy vote for.

[quoteost_uid0]2. The supreme court stuff[/quoteost_uid0]

American courts are far too politisized - especially the higher courts. Leave politics to the polititians!

[quoteost_uid0]And no offence Canada, but we can choose our own doctors, and the doctors aren't paid for by the government. We can switch healthcare plans. You call socialization freedom?[/quoteost_uid0]

Yes. The freedom not to die of a perfectly treatable disease or illness just because you can't afford to pay for treatment of it. People get all fired up about the Third World and drugs companies, and rightly so, but in some ways the US healthcare system is just as bad.

[quoteost_uid0]I totally agree on this. Just because 9/11 happened doesn't mean that everything in America's interest is automatically everything in the world's best interests![/quoteost_uid0]

If only someone would tell Mr. Bush that. Because the sycophants and yes-men he's surrounded by don't seem to be able to.

[quoteost_uid0]Or maybe I'll start supporting everything from Sierra Leone, because they have to face terror much greater than Americans every single day. They have to see it. They have to live it. Does Bush care about them? Nope. He isnt about anti-terror, he's pro-making-rich-Americans-rich. He's abused 9/11 and its victims for his own purposes.[/quoteost_uid0]

I had a teacher from Sierra Leone back when I lived on the Scottish mainland. Great guy. It makes you think - if Bush is so all-fired up about bringing democracy to those that don't have it, what about places like this? I mean, has Dubya even [iost_uid0]heard[/iost_uid0] of Africa? Of course not. And what about Burma? They've been in the news for the past few days for yet more flagrant and very public human rights voilations. Have the US govenrnment said anything? Nope. Of course they DID mention Iran - widely bandied about as a possible target for more military action, something not very strenuously denied by the administration - and all those demonstrations and denoucments of the ruling Islamic dictators by varoius people. What did we get? A "We support democracy" message from the US. I guess they're a bit miffed that they might not be able to invade after all.

Oil. Those three little letters that have so much impact. Anyone that says oil has nothing to do with the Iraq war is either a fool or one o'them Republicans with interests in Big Oil. I'm sure that oil also had something to do with the French, Russian and Chinese denoucments of any war way back before it started. And I'm sure that it has to do plenty with the US's relationship with the sometimes less than savoury govenrments of countries like Saudi Arabia.


Me? Get carried away? I don't know what you're talking about.[/colorost_uid0]

[catalina_marina]

[color=#000000ost_uid0][quoteost_uid0]Growing up, though, I always heard it pronounced like "apart-hide".[/quoteost_uid0]
That's what I thought most non-Dutch people would pronounce it.

[quoteost_uid0]The ei sound falls somewhere between a long A and a long I sound.[/quoteost_uid0]
It sounds better. I think it's the best description I've ever heard, although if I didn't know, I wouldn't know what to make of it.

[quoteost_uid0]Pim Fortuyn? He was assassinated, wasn't he? And wasn't he, like, a fascist?[/quoteost_uid0]
Yes and yes. He thought the Netherlands are for dutch people, so he wouldn't have let any refugees in. The assasin, ahem, murderer, thought he was a very dangerous man for the Netherlands. Which, obviously, he was.
That's my opinion anyway. A lot of people would have voted for him, and even more people still did. It was some kind of remembrance. I think that's completely nuts and very stupid. You do NOT vote for a dead man! :S

[quoteost_uid0]Ah, fascism, AKA "national socialism". It's great! unless, you're, y'know, gay, Jewish, Black, female, or poor![/quoteost_uid0]
Actually, he was gay. :lol:

[quoteost_uid0]Hmmm, let's see, who would be speaking german now if the U.S. hadn't interveined?[/quoteost_uid0]
I guess I would, but I also guess I wouldn't have minded. Do Irish people mind they speak English? And then I wouldn't have as much trouble with German as I do. Would have more with English, maybe.

[quoteost_uid0]Hmmm, let's see, who planted trees all along their roads because the Nazis were feeling hot marching in the sun?[/quoteost_uid0]
Who was that? I don't remember anything in my history lessons about that.

[quoteost_uid0]Hmmm, let's see, who surrendered?[/quoteost_uid0]
We only surrended after four or five days. Which is four or five the time they expected. And only after they completely bombed down one of our most important, if not the most, cities. But what would you do, if you have almost no defenses at al?

[quoteost_uid0]1. The hanging chad /"I meant to vote for Gore!" stuff.
2. The supreme court stuff[/quoteost_uid0]
3. I wasn't allowed to vote.

[quoteost_uid0]Yes, I seem to remember though that it took a direct attack on American soil by the Japanese before the US deigned to enter the fray. Never mind the fact that an evil fascist dictatorship was intent on taking over the the whole of Europe and Russia. How much quicker would the war have been over if the US had joined in two years earlier? How many less lives would have been lost? How many less Jews would have been murdered? As it was Britain came perrilously close to losing.[/quoteost_uid0]
Well said.

[quoteost_uid0]I guess in a perverted way we can thank the then Japanese govenrment for bringing the US in at all.[/quoteost_uid0]
I never thought of it like that. But I guess you're right.

[quoteost_uid0]Yes, it does the French's position that they were going to say no to any Resoloution is on the face of it unreasonable, but not when you consider the fact that they rightly saw that the US was going to declare war on Iraq no matter what, in which case I feel that they should stand up and take a bow for refusing to let the U.N. be used in such a manner.[/quoteost_uid0]
I wouldn't have joined if I were the French goverment either, although I can understand why our government joined (only official). Picture defendless little Holland vs. big powerfull US. It doesn't end well.[/colorost_uid0]

[Opium]

[color=#000000ost_uid0]Now you've got both my Canadian AND German blood pumping!


First off, not only can us Canadians pick any *&%$^ doctor we want, we are always covered in emergencies. Our poor are even treated with the same respect as everyone else! Plus, you get to have capitalistic freedoms all you want! In fact, since we introduced 3P (public/private partnerships) in Canada, we have realized just how flawed "private" healthcare is.

And guess what? For around 14 years of German history, there was a brutal dictator. Wow. 14 years. And since then, Germany has faught back, Germany has become a haven of safety, security, and respect. The roady hasnt been easy, and it has been bumpy, but heck, if Germany decided to rule the world tomorrow, I'de happily improve my German. But guess what! Germany doesnt have any silly "take-over-the-world" plan! The USA wants to do it with all it's corporations and political beliefs.

And to tell you the truth, that's what's wrong with the USA. A BASIC lack of respect for OTHER NATIONS and the MANY OTHER FREE, DEMOCRATIC NATIONS in this world besides the US of A. The USA is a great nation. It's ONE of the best. But it's this arrogance, this silly notion that everything American is good, that's the problem. The majority of Americans are obviously hard-working, good people. (Just like the rest of the world.) or the USA would not be so rich. But it's this arrogance, this striving for always more, more, more that will either destroy the USA or destroy the Earth. And that's mostly done by a greedy minority of Americans.[/colorost_uid0]

[catalina_marina]

[color=#000000ost_uid0][quoteost_uid0]For around 14 years of German history, there was a brutal dictator. Wow. 14 years.[/quoteost_uid0]
12 by my count. From 1933 to 1945.[/colorost_uid0]

[Opium]

[color=#000000ost_uid0]Good point. I was counting the pre-vote insanity, but officially you're right.[/colorost_uid0]

[mudshark]

[quoteost_uid0="Captain Galactic"][color=#000000ost_uid0]We can switch healthcare plans.[/colorost_uid0][/quoteost_uid0]
[color=#000000ost_uid0]Well, yes, we can switch healthcare plans if we happen to be employed by a company/a member of a union which provides one, or are reasonably well-off enough to be able to afford the premiums on our own. Problem is: this leaves out a substantial portion of the population.
[quoteost_uid0]The landmine thing.

I'm not sure if we use landmines, [/quoteost_uid0]Oh, yes. Lots.[/colorost_uid0]

[Opium]

[color=#000000ost_uid0]Oh, one other thing about Canadian health care. We do have health insurance for non-essentials, and we have choices in that, or they are provided by an employer. They reasonably priced and provide better coverage than an "HMO".[/colorost_uid0]

[Saxamaphone]

[color=#000000ost_uid0]My families German too, but I really don't relate.

It seems that a lot of the things we complain about today in politics seem like non-sequiturs. Sure you're fed up, I am too, but that's the nature of the beast. I know I'm an American, and I still have pride in that. We're doing some horrible things, yes, but it's always gonna be someone. Not that I'm cynical - thing can get better, I'm just putting some faith in the fact they will.[/colorost_uid0]

[PointyHairedJedi]

[color=#000000ost_uid0]A man that I'm sure Bush looks up to.[/colorost_uid0]

[Nan]

[color=#000000ost_uid0](This is what I was afraid of. Warning: this message is not intended to offend. I have nothing against Americans, my problem is with the current government.)

CG, do me the respect of actually READING what I wrote.

I never called America barbaric. I said RUSSIA has a barbaric history with landmines. And China's record with human rights isn't exactly stellar either, as I note below.

Re: mines.

Yes the States DOES use mines. LOTS of them.

In fact, FRANCE signed the anti-landmine treaty. Cheese-eating surrender-monkey France.

And speaking of France, here's a hypothetical situation for you.

CGland is invaded by a neighbour with, lets be conservative, four times your arms capability and NO qualms about killing civilians. You resist. This neighbour decides to demoralize your country by lining up and shooting civilians for each soldier killed.

In Belgium it was three per soldier. 500 dead soldiers = 1,500 dead women and children.

Continue to resist and your army will be cut down by advanced technology you can't match. Crops are destroyed by bombing raids, hospitals have no supplies and simple infections become deadly.

Your enemy takes your country. Your people are starving and there's no way to help them. Abuses by your enemy's soldiers go unanswered, and the abuses are many.

It doesn't stop there.

Later, your people will be relocated to death camps, where they will be systematically worked to death. The children will be seperated from their parents, and put on trains to munitions factories where they will be worked to death. Usually, they are simply put in the gas chambers. The women will have their hair shaved off for stuffing mattresses and be worked to death. The men do hard labour until they die.

Those who die will have their jaws removed from their skeletons so their gold fillings can be pried out later. Welcome to "liquidation," when the body is stripped for anything useful and then burned.

That's what my uncle lived through. He lived long enough to be liberated. Grey at twenty. Stood at attention by his bedside in his sleep, as the Nazis made prisoners do during spot checks, often leaving them there all night out of spite.

That's what HAPPENED, and that's not the worst. Hitler's plan was to first exterminate the Jews and Gypsies. Then the Poles, Ukrainians, and Russians would be slaughtered and their countries plowed under and turned into farmland, the breadbasket of the Third Reich (the first two being the Byzantine and Roman "reichs"), which was to last a thousand years.

You can avoid these atrocities, at least for a while, if you surrender. You can maintain some semblance of order, even as the enemy occupies your nation.

So, what'll it be? What do you [iost_uid0]honestly[/iost_uid0] think you'd do? Political sentiment goes out the window when faced with your own death and the ruin of your nation. I reject political party alignments for that reason.

I have a different perspective, because members of my family were murdered, starved, and abused because of the Nazis. My grandmother, who is French, suffered so badly from rationing that she had to bind her ankles to be able to stand upright. My father's family is Polish, and a number of his relatives were in the underground. THEY were either killed, or arrested by the Russians after the war when THEY took over. And Stalin killed more people than Hitler! China's Great LKeap Forward left millions starving and thousand executed for being "counter-revolutionary". Both the Russians and Chinese used secret arrests. The Chinese still deny that Tiananmin Suqare ever happened. In fact, the Chinese STILL arrange for the murders of political prisoners by bribing their fellow prisoners with reduced sentences. The Russians killed dozens of people with an experimental gas with nary an apology.

Those are the governments who refused to sign the treaty.

And I'd really like it if we could get back to actual BaW fivers before this turns into a screaming match and one of the moderators is forced to THWACK us all...?[/colorost_uid0]