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View Poll Results: If you were/are registered as a U. S. voter, who would/did you choose?
John Kerry (Democrat) 27 52.94%
George W. Bush (Republican) 17 33.33%
"Go ahead. THROW YOUR VOTE AWAY!" 7 13.73%
Voters: 51. You may not vote on this poll

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  #61  
Old 11-05-2004, 05:42 AM
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Bush alone isn't that dangerous, true, and I can see why some people like him. But this is the man whose faith has apparently overcome the need for checks & balances or critical thinking within the White House. Not good.

Then we have Ashcroft and Cheney in the package, and the ridiculous-if-it-wasn't-so-damn-sad things like the USAPATRIOT act, TIPS or passenger screening for air travel, plus the ominously-named Department of Homeland Security. The only way to protect the freedom is to destroy it? Count me out.

And I repeat on the Saddam front: Unprovoked. Aggression. Sometimes it's necessary, but I've yet to see anyone be so cavalier about it. Used to be that you had to declare war before you could fight it, but I guess the last guy who knew that was shipped off to Vietnam and caught some friendly fire.

I don't advocate Kerry. I'd just as soon see the entire US party system demolished and rebuilt from scratch, seeing how the Democrats have stuck with being second-rate Republicans.

It's not just Bush, it's an entire group of wrong people at the wrong positions. Who will be next? What country will fall before the awesome might of Bush's faith-based presidency next? Where do you want the Marines to go today?

(Also, regarding the "Support the troops" thing: How about not, you know, sending them to die without a real damn good reason?)

I'm sorry if this is getting a bit agitated, I just want to make sure everybody understands *why* I say Bush needs to go.

Gatac
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  #62  
Old 11-05-2004, 05:52 AM
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Yay, Gatac understands my troop support thing!

And yes, Bush himself is not THAT dangerous, since no matter what he does, there are still limitations on the power of the presidency (but they're shrinking rapidly.) And Gatac mentioned what I said before, his whole administration is rotten. Also, a faith-based presidency is wrong on oh-so-many levels. Separation of church and state is really important to me and a lot of other people, and Bush is tearing all that apart, and nobody takes notice. I believe he's said before that he thinks he's doing God's work, well, I don't want him to do God's work as the president, I want him to be a president. The ecclesiastical and the secular are not clashing in this man, they're merging. That's frightening to me.

Hmm...what else...Oh,yeah. The military is not a freaking diplomatic tool! Stop using it like that! I don't care if the stupid sanctions didn't work, you didn't have to take over the freaking country, dipstick! *breathes* Oops, lost control a little there. Just...don't be surprised if Iraq becomes the 51st state.
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  #63  
Old 11-05-2004, 08:40 AM
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Later note: If I come off as partisan, please keep in mind that I've argued this issue with people who would literally rather turn the whole Middle East into glass rather than letting it be.

Also, on the issue of faith:

http://www.mrlizard.com/disbelief.html

Gatac
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  #64  
Old 11-05-2004, 09:12 AM
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I liked that essay, Gatac, it was informative without the stuffiness usually found in essay. I give it a 4.5/5!
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  #65  
Old 11-05-2004, 09:26 AM
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Gatac, by your arguments Woodrow Wilson would be a crazed loon who should be locked up in a padded cell. And yet he is one of the most respected people in history. Also, Vedra, abortion is a-moral. It is the killing of innocents and it cannot under any circumstances be sanctioned. See also my views on euthanasia. I'm sorry, but you cannot condemn someone for confidence in themselves and God to guide them. Churchill did, and was the greatest politician Britain has had in the 20th Century..... :?
On the Saddam front - he was more dangerous because he could sell oil and use it for WMD and he was sitting on a gold pot and knew it. He has been extremely dangerous. And yes, there was something fishy about the whole war on terror but it must be carried out. There is no going back now, because if we turn back now, the terrorists will start treating the West like a doormat. As for reducing the East to rubble, no. How about spending more on alternative fuels, thus weakening the East (not so much need for oil any more if we are using Hydrogen fuel-cells is there?), and reducing the amount of money available. But the US wont do that, just like you refused to sign the conservation and environmental treaties in the 1990s. because most of America would have been against it. Boo. Hoo. Sometimes right has to be done at the expense of giving people a say. It's not nice but tough. Also, maybe you're right. maybe eliminating terrorism in the East is impossible, like trying to empty an ocean. After all, we might argue, how did Islam gain control of the Holy Land? They took it. and killed and maimed there way to it. We might argue that Islam is a religion of hate and violence, might we not, along these lines, and that the reason the West is so kowtowing to it is through fear that oil will be cut off if we aren't. No-one seems to give a damn about insulting the Pope, but insult an ayatollah, and you must be hanged, drawn and quatered and apologies must be given out by the truck-load, we might argue. We might argue. :? . I have taken you're arguments and added a little, I know...but I think you will come to the correct conclusions from this. Everyone here certainly seems to be intelligent. So please, think on this for a moment.
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  #66  
Old 11-05-2004, 09:47 AM
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Oh, where to begin...

First off, I never said I was for abortion. I said voting for someone based on 1 issue is ignorant. Besides, morality is subjective and telling someone something is amoral like it's a fact is forcing your views on others. The pro-choice people aren't forcing you all to go get abortions, but you're taking away their right to choose. It's not your freaking body, don't worry about it. Hell, that philosophy can be extended to nearly anything, like anti-gay laws. And as far as innocents, is the "accidental" murder of civilians during battle just supposed to be considered casualties? How can you possibly make that distinction? Babies are no more alive than an adult is, and the notion of it's innocence is still subjective. You have no objection to killing animals for your food, or burning up the remains of animals in your car, or seeing them prancing about for your entertainment. How is animal life any different from human life? Because it's sentient? Should that really make any difference as far as it's right to live? I don't think so.

As far as terrorism, let's analyze it a little bit. Terrorism is an idea,not an organization. It can't be "destroyed" or "captured". It's a notion that violence and fear is all someone will understand. The terrorists we're after know this, and they have nothing to lose. By fighting fire with fire, so to speak ,we're just perpetuating more and more violence. It will not stop. Why does no one see this? Violence begets violence. It's very simple. It makes sense.

If you'll recall, any slights against the Roman Catholic Church (Pope included) in the past could be punishable by death. We're just living in a time where someone else is considered sacred enough to kill for. Joan of Arc was convicted of witchcraft for talking to a Christian saint. So then is prayer a metaphor? I don't see a point in praying if you actually aren't supposed to get an answer. If you do, you get barbequed. Wow, that's fair.

EDIT: And before I get the "You do it,too!" response, I'll say that yes. I do eat meat, I do drive a car, and I do, on occasion, watch Animal Planet. All I said was I think they're wrong, but I still do them, because that's the society we live in. It's not easy to not eat meat, or drive a car, or anything like that.
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  #67  
Old 11-05-2004, 09:57 AM
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When did I EVER say that civilians in war could be written off?! I never said, either that or that animals were less than human beings. I never said that babies are more human than casualties and you are stuffing words in my direction which I never used. NEVER do that to me again, Vedra. NEVER. In any case, if we didn't look out for other people we wouldnt be a very nice society. and I know that abortion is meant to be painful and extremely unpleasant for the woman undergoing it. In this country "so call 'Great' Britain" women are actively encouraged, not just given the choice to abort. The notion of terrorism? I thought I just answered that. Yes, I do recall about slights against the Church, and I also think that it was wrong. But the church is, after all, made up of mortal men, and cannot be expected to be infallible about everything all the time. I wasn't saying we should'nt respect other religious beliefs, I was saying that maybe all religious beliefs should be respected equally. So please NEVER stuff words in my mouth and twist my words again. Two can play at that game and you have destroyed any respect I might have had for you for sticking up for your beliefs and thinking. Doing things like that makes me sick.
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  #68  
Old 11-05-2004, 10:09 AM
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You had respect for me? That's news.

I wasn't putting words in your mouth, if you bothered to read my post through the blood clouding your eyeballs. I was giving examples of why it shouldn't be okay to kill anything. Period. Babies aren't special, they're equal. Just like everything else should be, ideally.

You said something about terrorism? I must not have found it when I couldn't follow what your post was trying to say any longer. Anyway, it goes back to killing. I see it being hypocritical that everyone is so upset about them killing our people, but then we have no qualms about killing them, or people that barely have any connection (And yes, I am talking about Iraq.) This kind of revenge policy isn't right, didn't Jesus say to turn the other cheek?

Besides, if you won't listen to reason, I'll put it in terms you WILL understand. You put words in my mouth about being for abortion. I put words in your mouth about civilians and animals. That's fair if we follow this "eye for an eye" policy you seem to approve of so much.
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  #69  
Old 11-05-2004, 12:24 PM
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Yes I know. Turn the other cheek. But there comes a point where you find someone out to kill you who will punch you on the other cheek as well and keep punching you 'till you bleed and die. And I mean on a global and international scale, not person-to-person. I wasn't talking about vengeance, but more that religious beliefs should be equally respected. Yes, we kill their people, but we at least try not to kill civilians who get caught in the fighting. I agree, though that people are hypocritical. I'm sorry, but that's human nature. And yes, I will listen to reason, and I can follow a train of logic. But you must forgive me ( and I don't mean that I'm going to come 'round with some "rough" guys if you don't! :P) if I lose my rag occasionally. I get obsessive with things, and I'm sorry if I got annoyed with you but this is a subject which I have been thinking about for some time. Can we forget about this now, its BOR-RING!
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  #70  
Old 11-05-2004, 02:30 PM
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Clarifying a few things.

The essay was not written by me, I merely agree with it.

I certainly didn't mean to insult Woodrow Wilson. Indeed, this is a topic where I'll gladly let someone else argue because I do not know enough about him to have a considered opinion of him. My problem is not with people of faith (indeed, I'm glad to count several Christians among my friends, even though I myself am agnostic), but with people who have lost sight of reality. Listening to Bush for any amount of time gives me the distinct impression that he is no longer quite on our planet, if you get my drift.

Abortion, nonewithstanding moral issues, should be legal, precisely because this is a decision you should be able to make. Like so many things in morality, we do not know where life begins. There is no scientific answer. We do not know if there are souls; we cannot even define what constitutes a person. However, we can have beliefs in either direction, and I tend to fall pro-choice. This applies equally to homosexual marriage (gay rights in general, actually), freedom of speech, censorship and gun control. We are all responsible for what we do and what we say. In the end, no law can dictate all but the most basic morality, and any attempt to do so will lead to a reduction of overall freedom while not solving the original moral dilemma.

As for the "fight back" part, my German citizenship lead me through a nine month period of military service. We were not trained to kill, but we were trained to fight. Combat is always the last option, but when it is chosen, it must be fought quickly and decisively. The goal of any sensible military operation is to destroy your enemy's ability to oppose you while minimizing collateral damage. We turn the other cheek once, then we knock you on your rear and put you in a jointlock.

On eating animals...this is a difficult topic, but I believe it is OK to kill animals for food. Blabbering nonewithstanding, I have yet to come across a vegetarian diet that is actually demonstrably as healthy as a balance of "normal" food. I know you're all going "No fair!", but the fact of the matter is that humans are omnivores, hunters and gatherers for a far longer time than we have spent living in mostly one place. I believe the answer to the problem is finding ways to create meat without killing animals; science is making progress here. In the meantime, we should treat the animals we do eat as well as possible.

Lastly, terrorism is the weapon of the disenfranchised. I do not mean to come off sounding superior, but please consider that the Middle East has long been gridlocked in tribal wars and such. Europe and the US didn't become advanced overnight; it took hundreds of years for cultural and technological evolution even after kingdoms and such came into existance. The Middle East becomes a sort of "Prime Directive" problem, only that the damage is already done. And (please kick me if you've heard it before), supporting Israel really isn't the best way to curry favor with the rest of the Middle East. Israel has started aggressive wars against each and every one of their neighbours, violates three times as many UN resolutions as the Iraq did at the time of the invasion, and is the only country in the Middle East to have nuclear weapons. I don't even need to start on anything they're doing right now; these three things alone explain a lot.

There. That ought to feed the flames a bit.

Gatac
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  #71  
Old 11-05-2004, 09:44 PM
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Have to agree with you on Israel. They've got it coming to 'em after what they've pulled. And I don't like Sharon. Besides, he's got a funny name
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  #72  
Old 11-05-2004, 09:51 PM
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Quote:
And I don't like Sharon. Besides, he's got a funny name
You'd be stroppy too if your parents gave you two girl's names.
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Old 11-05-2004, 09:52 PM
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I'm not a vegetarian, and I didn't say it was wrong to eat animals, I was using it to make a point that all life is important. I eat meat, and I like eating meat, cuz it's yummy. lol
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  #74  
Old 11-05-2004, 10:02 PM
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Well, suffice to say, after years of argueing on the net, the only people I am genuinely afraid of are the vegetarians.

Gatac
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Old 11-05-2004, 10:04 PM
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Yeah...that's kinda true. Want some of my Kentucky Firaga Chocobo?
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  #76  
Old 11-05-2004, 10:56 PM
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Screw politics, I'm moving to Mars.
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  #77  
Old 11-06-2004, 01:16 AM
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I am deeply, deeply, deeply gratified that the election is OVER, because it's been over a freakin' year of partisan drivel and I was starting to get hateful of it all. X(
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Old 11-06-2004, 09:08 AM
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Ha! We've got another in next year! (we watch the US one.....I wonder how many US citizens will watch the British one? interesting thing to watch, methinks.....(thats how many US citizens watch the election, not the election itself)). Perhaps a similar event here could be organised as for the US elections?
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  #79  
Old 11-06-2004, 03:53 PM
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Whoa....Valium joined on September 11th. That's kinda...creepy. lol
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Old 11-06-2004, 04:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chancellor Valium
Perhaps a similar event here could be organised as for the US elections?
Do we have to?

*Runs kicking and screaming from the thought of another election, especially one I will be voting in for real*
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