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  #21  
Old 02-05-2005, 10:06 PM
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"All generalizations are false, including this one." --Eisenhower (I think)
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  #22  
Old 02-05-2005, 10:11 PM
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I have to say...Ginga does have a point, even if it a generalization.

I think it is somehow a life-imitating-art, art-imitating-life catch-22 phenomenon.

Back in the day, ie, 1999, viewers were given a taste of so-called reality TV. Some good shows were created- The Mole, The Amazing Race, Survivor. Fun, interesting, shows. People watched them. The networks realized how cheap reality TV is compared to dramas. They produced more reality TV shows; viewers still watched. This continued until today...and now this. Good TV being harder to find.

At least there are still some beacons of hope...L&0:SVU and CSI are examples. And don't forget PBS...it has some great stuff. But Enterprise's cancellation is another point in the declining land of TV. Even the original L&O is just a " very good" show now (when it used to be excellent). I think The Simpon's are a good representation of the problem.

Can I suggest that perhaps reality TV has replaced sci-fi in a way as the preferred "guility-pleasure" tv shows the networks produce? And that slowly "reality tv" is replacing other genres too? :?
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  #23  
Old 02-05-2005, 11:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PointyHairedJedi
Now, what I really don't like is when people make absurd generalisations like that. Nothing is ever that simple - there is no one party to blame, especially not in something like this.

I'm not getting at you personally, Fuyu, it's just generalisations really bug me, that's all.
LOL, is it really a generalization? Too many reality shows are taking the top spots in the ratings, thereby leading me to believe that (not) everyone (but too many people) would rather watch these... these things. :P I am sorry generalizations bug you, I shall generalize less.

Opium - Reality TV isn't even a guilty pleasure, at least not around here. Around here reality TV is "cool". *pukes*


And I just thought of something else. How many other programs on UPN do you watch, anyway? How many other programs does anyone else watch?

Maybe UPN has just been shot in the heart. o_O
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  #24  
Old 02-05-2005, 11:43 PM
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  #25  
Old 02-06-2005, 01:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuyu Ginga
And I just thought of something else. How many other programs on UPN do you watch, anyway?
I don't get a UPN affiliate, but it actually has (in my opinion, as well as that of TWoP and Entertainment Weekly, to name a few) one of the best new shows of the year: Veronica Mars. Naturally, being that VM is well-acted, well-writen, and could teach even Lost a thing or two about pacing a long term mystery arc, it's in danger of being cancelled if it's ratings don't improve over the last half of the season. Further proof UPN is run by monkeys, if you ask me.
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  #26  
Old 02-06-2005, 08:57 AM
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There's actually a few good reality shows...Mythbusters and Monster Garage come to mind, as does the Long Way Round miniseries.

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  #27  
Old 02-06-2005, 09:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatac
There's actually a few good reality shows...Mythbusters and Monster Garage come to mind, as does the Long Way Round miniseries.

Gatac
I guess my reality-show bashing might have given the wrong impression.

There are some good reality shows...Mythbusters is fun, and there was Junkyard Wars. And the Mole 2. And of course all the "house" series's...1900 house, 1940's house, Edwardian House, Pioneer House, that one set in Newfoundland in the 1930's, etc...those were all really good.

Reality TV isn't all bad. There are some shining diamonds in the dirt. But I mean, after The Mole 2 ended, "Celebrity Mole" came, taking a great concept and ruining it with B, C, D, E, and F grade celebs.

Hmm...has this thread already gone off-topic? Let me bring it back on...

I think Enterprise and Voyager were both on the same level...pretty good sci-fi. I still liked DS9 and Next Gen best, although I did go throught a pretty huge Voyager phase for a while. In fact, I think DS9 and Next Gen spoiled Trek a bit...both had, in a way, wider appeal than "just" sci-fi. Voyager and Enterprise both had serious sci-fi roots, and Enterprise had to gain an audience all on its own, with no other Trek series happening when it started. A tough duty for a show lacking Patrick Stewart or Rene Auberjonois (both with non-sci-fi careers) or series faves like Colm Meaney, or sci-fi faves like Princepal Snider...I mean, Armin Shimerman.

So Enterprise really had a tough road ahead. It would have been nice to see it go to 7 seasons...if only to see the plots interplay until they match up with TOS, TNG, DS9 and VOY timelines. And to demand satisfaction with Trip/T'Pol. And see Porthos get help at Cheeseeaters Annonymous.
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  #28  
Old 02-06-2005, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke
All generalizations?
Excepting the funny ones, naturally.

It will be fun, I must say, when the networks finally do implode due to the sheer crapulence of the programs they produce.
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  #29  
Old 02-06-2005, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuyu Ginga
Quote:
Originally Posted by PointyHairedJedi
Now, what I really don't like is when people make absurd generalisations like that. Nothing is ever that simple - there is no one party to blame, especially not in something like this.

I'm not getting at you personally, Fuyu, it's just generalisations really bug me, that's all.
LOL, is it really a generalization? Too many reality shows are taking the top spots in the ratings, thereby leading me to believe that (not) everyone (but too many people) would rather watch these... these things. :P I am sorry generalizations bug you, I shall generalize less.

Opium - Reality TV isn't even a guilty pleasure, at least not around here. Around here reality TV is "cool". *pukes*
Where I live, reality TV is dirt, nobody watches them, few actually watch TV in itself, but nonbody watches reality TV.

Dramas have good characters, good management, well writen stories. This is how CSI got to the top, well written stories, rare-but extremly good stories arcs, leaving something one season, than bringing it back later (like the Blue-Paint killer), well developed characters, with room to continue developing, all played by good actors, and, of course, for those who read the TWoP recaps, The S.S. Geek Love

And, if you don't like CSI and it's two spin-offs, there's House, Lost, Medium, Desperate Housewives, L&O... darnit, that's all the Drama's I can think of....

There's also the Discovery Channel, Space, and other channels with no Reality TV

Reality is far from taking over the TV industry, eventually, they're going to run out of ideas
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  #30  
Old 02-07-2005, 11:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PointyHairedJedi
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke
All generalizations?
Excepting the funny ones, naturally.

It will be fun, I must say, when the networks finally do implode due to the sheer crapulence of the programs they produce.
When everyone just watches everything on the internet?


Here's my $2.22:

My opinion of Enterprise: :|
My opinion on the Cancellation:

I really didn't like it that much, but I really didn't want it to be cancelled, especially after it seemed as though each season was better than the last.

My reasons for not liking it very much:
Re-writing history
Ridiculous writing (and sex-over-doing)
Missed Opportunities (I can see so many places where it could have been so much cooler)
Predictable
Nonsensical at times, anticlimatic, and sometimes even boring.

Not to say I didn't like it, I still watched almost all of them, but it just seemed when I missed one, it really wasn't that big of a deal - I never really got into the show and it never really could hold my attention.


(By the way, If you were wondering, I was out of town all weekend)
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  #31  
Old 02-08-2005, 03:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KillerGodMan
(like the Blue-Paint killer)
I love the 2nd episode of those two Blue-Paint killer episodes. And lets not forget Paul Milander!

Oh, wow. Way to veer completely off-topic, me. *smacks self*
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  #32  
Old 02-10-2005, 01:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PointyHairedJedi
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke
All generalizations?
Excepting the funny ones, naturally.

It will be fun, I must say, when the networks finally do implode due to the sheer crapulence of the programs they produce.
Here here! There there!

If I see one more spinoff with any of the words 'Survivor', 'Mole', 'Race', or any of the like in their names I'm going to...

Do something. Involving magnets. Preferably actually hot-glue gunning the execs to chairs and forcing them to watch their own crummy shows.
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  #33  
Old 02-10-2005, 01:37 AM
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  #34  
Old 02-10-2005, 08:05 AM
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I mostly agree with what Fuyu Ginga said. Except I can't express any dismay over ENT's cancellation, and I'm glad it really didn't last any longer than it already has.

Like Sa'ar Chasm, I mostly stopped watching in the midst of Season 1 when every episode seemed to turn into a commercial for some kind of body wash, with everyone rubbing all over each other in as little clothing as possible. TNG, DS9, and VOY all had sexual elements, but even they really did not go as far and get as desperate as ENT did.

The whole rewriting of Trek history, ignoring canon, and alienating a huge section of the fan base ... I don't think I'll ever understand who thought this would be a good idea. When a show airs on a network that the entire country doesn't even get, it would seem that you need as many fans as you can get, and can't really afford to tick scores of them off. But that's what B&B did.

I for one, am really glad Trek will be going into hiatus. Hopefully when it comes back, neither B will be at the helm, someone with imagination like Coto or Ron Moore or Rene Echevarria might be involved, and we'll be able to enjoy the next Trek renaissance.
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  #35  
Old 02-10-2005, 06:15 PM
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I've been meaning to reply to one of these threads or the other for a while. I'm not picking this one for any reason in particular besides it being the one I'm currently viewing.

Over the course of Enterprise's run, I haven't exactly been the most praising of fans. I watched the first season, and wasn't in love with it. But it had some elements I enjoyed, and I did have to keep reminding myself that I sat through the sixth season of Voyager (which is still, in my mind, the worst overall season of the franchise). The second season of Enterprise I watched as well. Many episodes I wasn't thrilled with. A few I was. Maybe it was just the Trek fan in me that didn't want to stop watching. Maybe I was sifting through for the gems in the mix -- which were definitely present. At the end of season two, the new direction was announced and I was not too thrilled. Yes, the show needed to do something. But I wasn't terribly thrilled with the something that was being offered. Xindi who? We're doing a prequel why? Couldn't we do something with just a *little* more relevance to the franchise this series was a part of?

So, like many fans, I called it quits after the second season finale. I heard its prasies sung, but I stood firm. Eventually through some convincing on Zeke's part, I downloaded the first few episodes. And while yes, it was different, I just couldn't shake the feeling of "why the hell are we doing this plot anyway?" And the writing on the first few episodes hadn't significantly improved, in my estimation.

I waded through downloaded copies of the first half of the season rather slowly, with pauses of many months before I'd watch a few more. Hell, I didn't even find "Twilight" all that impressive, while seemingly everyone else on the planet did. News of cancellation wouldn't have phased me much at that point, I will admit. The season wrapped up, and speculation on the possibility of a season four ramped up. I wasn't terribly interested until I heard about the direction the season was taking. So I was intrigued enough to finally get my ass in gear and watch the rest of season three. The writing in the second half of the season seemed much improved from the first half, and I enjoyed the conclusion more than I expected to. The last ten episodes of the arc were mostly entertaining -- something I couldn't exactly say for any ten straight episodes of any other season of the show. I would say it had been at least a few years since Trek had been that good. But no matter what, I couldn't shake -- and still can't shake the feeling that we really didn't need to waste a season of this show on some until then unknown threat with vague ties to the disappointing temporal cold war. Season three was unnecessary. Yes, it was entertaining, but in the end I can't say it added much to the franchise besides good episodes. No overall significance that I would expect from a prequel show.

Yet by the time I had finished the third season, I was hearing juicier and jucier details from the fourth season. The augments arc was in full swing, and I knew I wanted to be completely caught up before the Vulcan Civil war arc was in place. Could it be? Was this the series I was looking for all along? Hell, I knew "Storm Front" wasn't going to be satisfactory. But I watched it anyway. I had to be caught up for this so called "bold new direction" that had many doubters wrapped up in it. And did I find myself enjoying it?

Absolutely. "Home" was quite enjoyable for me. The augments arc wasn't absolutely groundbreaking, but it was entertaining. Like season three, except grounded in the prequel concept. I was blown away by the Vulcan arc. Seriously, I can't remember being so impressed with Trek in a long time. "Observer Effect" worked very well for me. "Daedalus" didn't work at all, but I can be lenient (my favorite season of the franchise does happen to include "The Alternative Factor" ). The arc begun by "Babel One" has been nothing short of brilliant, in my opinion.

For the most part, I was NOT impressed with Enterprise during its first few seasons. Had I been caught up with the third season during the cancellation speculation then, I probably still would not have been terribly phased. Yes there was good writing, but where were they going with it?

But season four is, in my opinion of course, the best Trek has been consistently in a long, long time. Since the original series movies, probably. Speaking of the movies, something just feels... cinematic about this season. It's very fresh, and somewhat surreal.

There are those who will still say Enterprise is no good. There are those who will say Enterprise has always been good. I ask that the former please come back to the series and watch some of the arcs from this season. I had been playing crotchety TOS fan for a while, until I gave this season a chance. And I'm really, really glad I did.

To those who have enjoyed Enterprise all along, I can't argue with you. Everyone has different tastes in programming. Every Trek fan has different opinions on where the franchise should go. I'm not going to tell you that the first two seasons sucked. I wouldn't even if I hated every last episode. That's no way to base an argument, and it pisses me off every time I see it done.

I will say though, that Enterprise was a series that had to succeed, or the franchise was doomed to its recent fate. Ratings had been slipping since TNG went off the air. Voyager had the benefit of being the flagship series of the new United Paramount Network, and could securely count on a seven season run. And during its run, the ratings decline continued. Enterprise needed to be a fresh start. Even the creators knew it -- why else would they set it in a new time period, go such a different direction with the theme song, and remove "Star Trek" from the title? Enterprise had to stop and reverse the ratings decline. Everyone knew it. If it didn't, it would be cancelled.

The thing is, it's very difficult to have a fresh start with the same creative team involved. I'm not going to rant against Berman and Braga, as I have nothing in particular against them. But I do think a fresh start needed a fresh perspective -- their perspective was not fresh, and could never have been. Enterprise's comparisons to Voyager were inevitable, how could they not be? How can one help but make comparisons between The Andromeda Strain and Jurassic Park? How can one not compare "Romeo and Juliet" to "Hamlet"? It isn't an issue of quality. It's an issue of creative perspective. And the Berman perspective of Trek had been around for a decade. You simply don't say "it's time for something new" and not make any changes in the creative department. Berman and Braga are who they are, and they're not going to single handedly reinvent the franchise.

Enterprise promised different, but it just wasn't different enough. So people tuned out. They were tired of the same old stories. And the creative department just wasn't delivering enough "new". By the time Berman and Braga realized change was needed, half the viewers had tuned out already. And season three still wasn't enough of a departure to get in the viewers. Once a show has lost viewers, it's very difficult to get them back. A show gets a lot of promotion at the start, but afterwards it needs quality and appeal to keep viewers coming back for more. And in the estimation of many, that just wasn't there.

It's a damn shame that by the time Enterprise had a fresh creative perspective, the viewership was lost. The show simply couldn't afford to take a couple of seasons to find its feet like the other series had. It had to come out of the gate strong, and how do you argue that it was strong enough when so many viewers feel otherwise?

I am watching these Save Enterprise campaigns with much interest. I would love another season. I really, really do hope they succeed. But there is a reason Enterprise is in this danger in the first place. I sincerely hope Paramount learns from its mistakes when series six comes around.

Whatever happens in series six, one thing is certain. It needs a fresh perspective, and it needs to captivate viewers from the start. It's really the only way Star Trek can come back and stay back.
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  #36  
Old 02-10-2005, 06:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaverickZer0
Do something. Involving magnets. Preferably actually hot-glue gunning the execs to chairs and forcing them to watch their own crummy shows.
*Wanders off topic*

You're reminding me of HK-47 from KotOR. You're not going to start calling us humanoids "meatbags" are you? :roll:
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Old 02-10-2005, 09:57 PM
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IJD, you bastard! You complete and utter bastard! Vulcan civil war? Here I was, completely spoiler-free about the entirity of season four, and you've gone and completely blown it out of the water!

Well, I hope you're happy. :P
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Old 02-10-2005, 10:16 PM
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Don't worry, the name doesn't give much away. I was expecting something far... different.
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  #39  
Old 02-11-2005, 03:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chancellor Valium
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaverickZer0
Do something. Involving magnets. Preferably actually hot-glue gunning the execs to chairs and forcing them to watch their own crummy shows.
*Wanders off topic*

You're reminding me of HK-47 from KotOR. You're not going to start calling us humanoids "meatbags" are you? :roll:
I have my own catchphrases exactly. And I have nothing against humanoids. Their blood tastes quite good.

I mean, let's get back on topic!
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Old 02-11-2005, 07:02 AM
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Quote:
Do something. Involving magnets. Preferably actually hot-glue gunning the execs to chairs and forcing them to watch their own crummy shows.
You know, last year I was glue gunning something, and I got it on my finger, and burned it, and instinctivly put in my mouth, getting hot glue stuck to my lip. Owwy! It was red and raw for like two days!

But then again...wouldn't making execs watch bad shows be punishment enough?
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