X-Men 2: Some thoughts - Major spoilers, obviously

[Sa'ar Chasm]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]I saw this movie at 1:30 in the afternoon on the day it opened here in Kelowna. The theatre was mostly empty. This is one of the benefits of being unemployed and finished classes.

When we first saw Wolverine, walking through a landscape of mountains, trees and snow, I thought to myself "This must be Canada." There is an Alkali Lake in the BC Interior, but it doesn't have a CGI dam on it. Or a secret mutant research lab, either.

In addition to the main characters, I noticed that following mutants in the movie (or references to them):
Colossus (Metal guy who shrugged off the bullets. He was missing his Russian accent, though.)
Shadowcat (Girl who fell through the bed and ran out through the wall)
Banshee (Sorta...the girl with the sonic scream seemed to exhibit Banshee's power, but in the comics Banshee was a guy. However, the banshees of Irish myth were women. Draw your own conclusions)
Beast (The TV in the bar where that security guard got waylaid by Mystique showed an interview with Dr. Hank McCoy)
Gambit (When Mystique broke into the government office, the name on the list above the one she was looking at was Remy LeBeau, or something similar. This is Gambit's real name. There were probably others on that list that I didn't notice)
Jubilee (The Chinese girl who comes into Picard's...sorry, Professor X's study at the end. I think.)
Lady Deathstrike (Stryker's pet mutant with the Wolverine-type claws. I don't think they referred to her by this name, but I recognise the character. Took me the entire more to do it, though.)
Phoenix (Not really a mutant, but a significant part of the Marvel Girl/Jean Grey story arc. Manifested by the flames crackling around her at the climax of the movie.)

Anybody see something I missed?[/color:post_uid0]

[Nan]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]I haven't seen it yet, but they made Yuriko Oyama a mutant? Int he original comic, I think, she's just a human with cybernetic implants.

Weird.[/color:post_uid0]

[Sa'ar Chasm]

[color=#000000:post_uid0][quote:post_uid0]I haven't seen it yet, but they made Yuriko Oyama a mutant? Int he original comic, I think, she's just a human with cybernetic implants.
[/quote:post_uid0]

She's got the same mutant healing factor as Wolverine. I dunno if she's got his animal senses as well. She's also undergone the adamantium process, and she's got five claws on each hand that grow out of her fingertips.

I only know Lady Deathstrike from the TV cartoon, and I seem to recall her hanging out with a bunch of Australian self-made men. They augmented themselves cybernetically.[/color:post_uid0]

[ijdgaf]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]The movie totally, utterly, totally, absolutely, and totally rocked.

The opening scene alone, with Nightcrawler, was pure cinematic genious.

Me being the Matrix sequels naysayer I am, I have trouble believing there will be a better sequel this summer than X2. Amazing.[/color:post_uid0]

[taya17]

[color=#000000:post_uid0][quote:post_uid0="Sa'ar Chasm"]Banshee (Sorta...the girl with the sonic scream seemed to exhibit Banshee's power, but in the comics Banshee was a guy. However, the banshees of Irish myth were women. Draw your own conclusions)

Lady Deathstrike (Stryker's pet mutant with the Wolverine-type claws. I don't think they referred to her by this name, but I recognise the character. Took me the entire more to do it, though.)[/quote:post_uid0]

Actually... I think they did mention Deathstrike's name. Once. Somewhere. And she only got one line in the whole movie!

Re: girl with sonic scream
I was very amused by that scene... all I could think was... "Jool"... :D

The movie absolutely rock. Although I'll beg to differ and say that nothing can beat the Matrix sequels! I bet they kick major ass! I cannot wait :)[/color:post_uid0]

[Derek]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Didn't Rogue kill Lady Deathstrike in the comics? Or am I thinking of someone else?

Anyway, good movie. Struck me as being much like the first. Of course I got those intentionally strong [i:post_uid0]Star Trek II[/i:post_uid0] vibes at the end of the movie.

Not much else to say about it. Saw it last night.[/color:post_uid0]

[Wonko The Sane]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]One word: wow.
[quote:post_uid0]Anyway, good movie. Struck me as being much like the first. Of course I got those intentionally strong Star Trek II vibes at the end of the movie.[/quote:post_uid0]
Actually, I was reading Scott Kurtz's review of it, and he mentioned many more similarities to 'The Wrath of Khan':
[quote:post_uid0]- Stryker holds a grudge against Xavier over the death of his wife and is seeking revenge, just like Khan.
- Both Stryker and Khan used mind controlling agents to turn the heroes against one another.
- Jean and Spock both sacrifice themselves to save the ship and their friends.
- Both Khan and X2 end with a flyby of the resting place of the slain character. In both movies, the slain character delivers the opening monologue from the previous movie. Mark says that even the music at the end of X2 is actually very close to the music at the end of Khan.
- In Khan, Spock gives Kirk a copy of A Tale of Two Cities. In X2, both Xavier and Magneto are currently reading Once and future King. Message, Spock?
- Both movies use the image of rising sunlight as a symbol of hope after a horrible tragedy. The sun rising behind Genesis and the sun hitting Xavier's face. Both he and Kirk realize that everything is going to work out. Both feel renewed.
- In both Khan and X2, they leave an opening for the eventual return of the slain character.
[/quote:post_uid0]
In general, I thought this whole movie was ingenious. I would have really enjoyed it if not for the stupid kid in the theatre with the laser pointer. :madder:[/color:post_uid0]

[Derek]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]^ Interesting points on the further similarities. I noticed the similar endings but didn't think much about the other points. I had a good chuckle over watching Magneto read [i:post_uid0]The Once and Future King[/i:post_uid0], but that was all I thought of that.

One thing about the death that always bothered me was the fact that the X-Men had Bobby with them. Why couldn't he just run out and freeze all the water before it swallowed up the ship? No sacrifice necessary.[/color:post_uid0]

[ijdgaf]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]'cause Bobby ain't very powerful yet. Remember, he's still a student who's not in full control of his powers. Freezing a lakeful of water would be challanging, to say the least.

And even if he could, what about the momentum? Instead of a lakeful of water hurling itself at the blackbird, you'd have a lakeful of ice.[/color:post_uid0]

[Nan]

[color=#000000:post_uid0][quote:post_uid0="ijdgaf"]Instead of a lakeful of water hurling itself at the blackbird, you'd have a lakeful of ice.[/quote:post_uid0]
*ahem hem hem*

[b:post_uid0]CRUNCH![/b:post_uid0]

Water hurts. Ice hurts more. Ouchie.[/color:post_uid0]

[Sa'ar Chasm]

[color=#000000:post_uid0][quote:post_uid0]Why couldn't he just run out and freeze all the water before it swallowed up the ship? No sacrifice necessary.[/quote:post_uid0]

Or why Marvel Girl/Jean Grey/Whatever she's calling herself this week couldn't fly the damn ship from inside it.

I expected her to simply pick it up, not magically make the engines come on. Or why Prof. X couldn't add his pyschic strength to the effort, even if he was weakened by his ordeal. Once the Blackbird was flying on its own, it could clear the water, Chuck could take over diverting the water around Jean and Nightcrawler could blip in and out again.

I think the sacrifice came from character angst, and the need to set up the Phoenix story.[/color:post_uid0]

[Nan]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]I think Xavier is just a telepath, not a telekinetic. Jean Grey is more telekinetic than telepath.

I think.

EDIT: In the comic and cartoon series, she is "killed" and contacted by the Phoenix entity the same(ish) way: trying to save the ship, Jean Grey attempts to shield herself and pilot the ship to safety, etc etc...[/color:post_uid0]

[Sa'ar Chasm]

[color=#000000:post_uid0][quote:post_uid0]I think Xavier is just a telepath, not a telekinetic. Jean Grey is more telekinetic than telepath.

I think.
[/quote:post_uid0]

Didn't he catch the bullet in the first movie? Of course, this begs the question why he can't simply carry himself around instead of using the wheelchair.

I know, I know, fatigue, etc. I was just being silly.[/color:post_uid0]

[Nan]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]In the cop scene you mean? That was Magneto showing off, holding the cops hostage using their weapons against them.

Though only nickel, iron and cobalt are magnetic, so he should only be able to mess with stuff with those metals in them.

Ah well. ;)[/color:post_uid0]

[NeoMatrix]

[quote:post_uid0="Sa'ar Chasm"][color=#000000:post_uid0]Didn't he catch the bullet in the first movie? Of course, this begs the question why he can't simply carry himself around instead of using the wheelchair.

I know, I know, fatigue, etc. I was just being silly.[/color:post_uid0][/quote:post_uid0]
[color=#000000:post_uid0]Wasnt Jean Gray in the car with him? I think she is the one who stopped the bullet.[/color:post_uid0]

[Sa'ar Chasm]

[color=#000000:post_uid0][quote:post_uid0]Wasnt Jean Gray in the car with him? I think she is the one who stopped the bullet.[/quote:post_uid0]

I seem to recall Magneto taunting Chuckie about stopping them all, but my recollection is incomplete.[/color:post_uid0]

[PointyHairedJedi]

[color=#000000:post_uid0][quote:post_uid0]Of course, this begs the question why he can't simply carry himself around instead of using the wheelchair.[/quote:post_uid0]

Maybe they were going for that Commander Shore chic. It's very in you know.[/color:post_uid0]

[Nan]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Xavier took over Sabretooth's body and was going to attempt to kill Magneto, but Magneto used Xavier's concern for normals to escape: he took the guns out of the hands of the police and pointed them back at the police, daring Xavier to kill him, in which case the guns would go off and kill people.[/color:post_uid0]

[taya17]

[color=#000000:post_uid0][quote:post_uid0="Sa'ar Chasm"]I seem to recall Magneto taunting Chuckie about stopping them all, but my recollection is incomplete.[/quote:post_uid0]
I got the impression that it was Magneto himself who stopped the bullet, as well. He definitely did say that he couldn't stop all the bullets.... this I know because I just rewatched the first movie couple of weeks back.

But regarding the dam... I agree that either Storm or Iceman could have helped Jean by freezing the water.

And I don't get it. Why did she have to be OUTSIDE to divert the flow of water? COuldn't she just have done it while she was in the shuttle as well?[/color:post_uid0]

[Nan]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]I believe it was established that Iceman needs to be in physicaly proximity to actually freeze anything major, as the ice barrier. In the ship he probably could have, you know, made the windows fog up.

As for Storm, she would have had to raise a gale to divert the water. Which takes time, and they would all have drowned.

Water traveling at sufficient speed and pressure can cut metal in half. A water "blade" is actually a technology being investigated for a new demining machine.

Neither Iceman or Storm could have done anything fast enough, so they would have all died anyway.

Re: Jean Grey.

Perhaps she knew she'd survive, having been contacted by the Phoenix entity. That's what the shape under the water was, the fiery effect, the sudden shift in power, and probably the dreams mentioned as a "throwaway" by Cyclops.[/color:post_uid0]

[Derek]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]My understanding comic-book-wise is that Iceman could freeze the water. Yes, he'd have to be in physical contact with it, but it could have been him outside instead of Jean. As for the momentum of the water, there are two possibilities. One, since everyone knew the dam was breaking well ahead of time, he could have frozen the water long before the dam actually broke. Two, my understanding is that his power is such that he could negate the momentum. Sure, the momentum would have to be converted into heat, but his powers would eliminate that side effect.[/color:post_uid0]

[Nan]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Iceman isn't powerful enough yet to take the force and weight of that much water. It takes time to chill the water. He'd be killed, and the Blackbird with him, whether with water or slush. I doubt he would be capable of freezing tons and tons of water that fast. Plus, you can't freeze something to a stop. The energy has to go somewhere. The water'd get cold but it'd still be moving with TREMENDOUS force.

Plus, freezing the water in the dam would have made the breaks worse: water expands when frozen. The cracks would have been wedged open further, allowing more water in, etc. Or he'd have had to freeze the lake, which wasn't doable.

Effectively, Jean was the only one who'd have been able to do anything FAST enough.

Plus, they were setting up the Phoenix angle for most of the movie. Her "death" was predetermined.

Actually, there's a major science gaffe with Iceman. You can't just MAKE ice. He'd have to condense water (or some other gas) out of the air or use an existence source of something, then draw the heat energy out psionically, thus condensing the water (or whatever) into a solid. Unless he's got some freaky sublimation powers or something.

Sa'ar, you're a chemist. Surely your degree will be of some help here. :D[/color:post_uid0]

[Sa'ar Chasm]

[color=#000000:post_uid0][quote:post_uid0]Sa'ar, you're a chemist. Surely your degree will be of some help here. [/quote:post_uid0]

Indeed it is. It's useful for saying "Yeah, what she said."[/color:post_uid0]

[taya17]

[quote:post_uid0="Nan"][color=#000000:post_uid0]Perhaps she knew she'd survive, having been contacted by the Phoenix entity. That's what the shape under the water was, the fiery effect, the sudden shift in power, and probably the dreams mentioned as a "throwaway" by Cyclops.[/color:post_uid0][/quote:post_uid0]
[color=#000000:post_uid0]Ah-hah! So I wasn't imagining the shape I saw in the water after all!! *does a little victory dance*[/color:post_uid0]

[Sa'ar Chasm]

[color=#000000:post_uid0][quote:post_uid0]Ah-hah! So I wasn't imagining the shape I saw in the water after all!! [/quote:post_uid0]

I was looking for it. The people I saw the movie with saw it too, 'cause I screamed "Phoenix! Phoenix!" in their ears.[/color:post_uid0]

[taya17]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Well, actually I was kind of expecting (okay, hoping!) to see something in the water, so when I thought I actually did see something part of me wondered if it were just wishful thinking. :)[/color:post_uid0]

[PointyHairedJedi]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]I was going to mention how sad it is that you're all trying to explain the stuff that happened in terms of science and how ironic it is because of the whole 'mutant/comic-book' thing, but you know I don't think I will bother after all.[/color:post_uid0]

[Sa'ar Chasm]

[color=#000000:post_uid0][quote:post_uid0]I was going to mention how sad it is that you're all trying to explain the stuff that happened in terms of science and how ironic it is because of the whole 'mutant/comic-book' thing, but you know I don't think I will bother after all.[/quote:post_uid0]

What, you don't think the increased ambient radiation from nuclear bomb tests could cause people to shoot force beams from their eyes or grow metal skins?[/color:post_uid0]

[ijdgaf]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]For the earlier question of why Jean had to get out of the blackbird, it appeared that it was her powers which affected the blackbird's electronics in the first place. Notice that once she gets off, the systems are go again.[/color:post_uid0]

[Sa'ar Chasm]

[color=#000000:post_uid0][quote:post_uid0]For the earlier question of why Jean had to get out of the blackbird, it appeared that it was her powers which affected the blackbird's electronics in the first place. Notice that once she gets off, the systems are go again.[/quote:post_uid0]

You could be on to something here. I'd attributed it to bad writing.[/color:post_uid0]

[Nan]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Good point, ijdgaf. Hmmmmmm....

Nyer, Pointy. :p[/color:post_uid0]

[taya17]

[color=#000000:post_uid0][quote:post_uid0="PointyHairedJedi"]I was going to mention how sad it is that you're all trying to explain the stuff that happened in terms of science and how ironic it is because of the whole 'mutant/comic-book' thing, but you know I don't think I will bother after all.[/quote:post_uid0]
When we first watched X-Men, we tried to actually figure out what kinds of mutation would be necessary to achieve all those phenotypic effects, but the only plausible types of mutation we could conceive were for Wolverine's healing powers, so we just gave up after a while an enjoyed the movie as it was :)[/color:post_uid0]

[Nan]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Marrow's powers are pretty easy to figure out.

A considerable number of mutants' powers are psionically based, anyway.

Like Proteus, Mystique, etc...[/color:post_uid0]

[taya17]

[quote:post_uid0="Nan"][color=#000000:post_uid0]A considerable number of mutants' powers are psionically based, anyway.

Like Proteus, Mystique, etc...[/color:post_uid0][/quote:post_uid0]
[color=#000000:post_uid0]How would Mystique's powers be psionically based? She manipulates your mind so that you see her as something else?[/color:post_uid0]

[Nan]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Psychokinesis. She can't change her mass, but she can change her shape to a limited degree. She moves her atoms around. Her morphing powers are not based on striated muscle or pigment cells or anything like that, although those may add to her abilities.

Telepathy wouldn't mean anything if she was caught on a simple videotape as a scaley blue woman instead of Senator Kelly. ;)[/color:post_uid0]

[taya17]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]oic! Wowww, how does THAT work?

Maybe she's a founder :)[/color:post_uid0]

[Nan]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]No idea. But the blue body makeup is cool INDEED. :)

I liked that, though Rebecca Romijn-Stamos was effectively naked, the camera kept the leering to a minimum. ;)

(Brian Singer [b:post_uid0]rules[/b:post_uid0].)[/color:post_uid0]

[Kira]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Okay, it took me three fricking weeks, but I finally got out to see X2. And man, was it ever worth the wait. I was blown away.

Now, as to some of the stuff that's been raised already in this thread....

Sweet, Jean's not dead? I knew it! However -- Pheonix? Zuh? I only sporadically watched the comics as a kid, and I never read the books. Somebody want to clue me in?

I never thought of Jean herself affecting the systems on the Blackbird, but it makes perfect sense. Remember how she screwed with all the electronics in the museum at the beginning?

I don't think Iceman freezing the water was a valid option. Sure, he probably could have done it before the dam burst, but they didn't have that opportunity -- by the time they actually got out of the base, the dam was already so close to bursting that it would have been suicide for Bobby to go near it. And Storm would have taken too long to do anything. I did expect Jean to just lift the jet, but where's the plot fun in that?

My understanding is, like has already been said, Xavier is a telepath and doesn't have any telekinetic ability. (If he did, would he really need a wheelchair?) Jean's primarily telekinetic but has been developing her telepathic abilities more and more. So there was really very little the Professor could do to help her.

One nitpick I got from previews that I'm glad wasn't an issue: Rogue and Iceman kissing. The first one, where she gets frosty breath, was just darn cool, but I'm glad they didn't sweep Rogue's inability to have physical contact under the rug. That would have been a real shame.

That all being dealt with: WOW. I can't remember ever having seen a sequel this good. (Mind you, X2 will probably only hold this title for me until the release of [i:post_uid0]Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban[/i:post_uid0] next summer, which will undoubtedly rock. :D) The special effects were great, the new characters were added seamlessly, the action was spellbinding, and whenever there was a break in the action we got fantastic character development. I'd go see it again in a heartbeat.[/color:post_uid0]

[Nan]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Re: Jean.

Long story short: Jean makes a friend in a high, fiery place. ;)[/color:post_uid0]

[taya17]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Just watched it again, WOO! *ahem* Sorry. Another of my trademark pointless irrelevant posts. *sighs*[/color:post_uid0]

[Celeste]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Don't bother trying to beat anyone in post counts. You're too far back now. Although.. NAH was psycho and got up there pretty quick himself.[/color:post_uid0]

[Sa'ar Chasm]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Something occured to me while I was watching Wolverine slice 'n dice the SpecOps soldies in the mansion...would he get blood poisoning from his claws? I suspect his hyperactive healing would deal with any toxins or foreign bodies that stuck to the claws when they were retracted. Either that, or they have a nonstick Teflon coating.

He did get shot with a tranq dart and didn't pass out, and I suspect that's why he was thrashing around during his adamantium-fusing process flashbacks: they couldn't anesthetise him. He also doesn't age, as indicated by Stryker's comment and by the comic book continuity where he fought in WWII with Captain America.

I also found it odd that there weren't any bloodstains on the fridge.[/color:post_uid0]

[NAHTMMM]

[color=#000000:post_uid0][quote:post_uid0="Celeste"]Although.. NAH was psycho and got up there pretty quick himself.[/quote:post_uid0]
:lol:

Wait a moment... :suspicious: ... [i:post_uid0]"Was"[/i:post_uid0] psycho?





;)[/color:post_uid0]

[Celeste]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Oh. Sorry. My mistake. :eyeroll:[/color:post_uid0]

[NAHTMMM]

[color=#000000:post_uid0][quote:post_uid0="Celeste"]Oh. Sorry. My mistake. :eyeroll:[/quote:post_uid0]
Nah, it's all right. :) Must've just slipped your mind. I hate it when that happens to me, though lately it's more been along the lines of my brain giving [i:post_uid0]me[/i:post_uid0] the slip... :suspicious:



*turns around and catches his brain in the act of slipping out the door to go find some peace and quiet* :madder: COME BACK HERE RIGHT THI--*notices other posters again*--er, this moment. Please. Right now, if you don't mind. *whistles innocently*[/color:post_uid0]

[PointyHairedJedi]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]The easy cure for that is keeping your fingers stuck in your ears all the time. It does have a few minor disadvantages, but that's the price you pay for not turning out like Dubya.[/color:post_uid0]

[Nate the Great]

This is just me being silly to respond to a two-year old post. The young girl with Banshee-like powers is Siryn, the daughter of Sean Cassidy AKA Banshee. Sean is proabably off on Muir Island or teaching with Emma Frost.