Things Enterprise can use from other Trek series

[Michiel]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]I was just thinking about what Enterprise could use from other Star Trek series, to improve continuity. I just thought of one. The distress beakon from TNG 2x18 Up The Long Ladder. It was in general use from 2123 until 2190. That's the Enterprise time-period. I know it's just a small thing, but it'd be fun. :)

Can anyone think of any others?[/color:post_uid0]

[Sa'ar Chasm]

[color=#000000:post_uid0][quote:post_uid0]I was just thinking about what Enterprise could use from other Star Trek series, to improve continuity. [/quote:post_uid0]

I can think of a few things from other Trek series that it shouldn't have used...

Griping aside, early Trek continuity is a bit screwed up, since contributions have been made to it over a 40-year timespan, and 'real' history is already starting to impinge on fake history. I must have missed the Eugenics Wars and not been paying attention when they launched Voyager 6.

Some Orions would be nice. If the Gorn show up, and then everyone "forgets" about them until Kirk's time, I'm going to suggest that Archer's Enterprise didn't bother to bring along any recording devices at all.[/color:post_uid0]

[Michiel]

[color=#000000:post_uid0][b:post_uid0]Archer:[/b:post_uid0] Captains log...
[b:post_uid0]T'Pol:[/b:post_uid0] Captain, you do know we don't have any recording devices with us?
[b:post_uid0]Archer:[/b:post_uid0] We don't? What have I been talking into all year?
[b:post_uid0]T'Pol:[/b:post_uid0] A spoon.
[b:post_uid0]Archer:[/b:post_uid0] Why didn't anyone tell me before?
[b:post_uid0]T'Pol:[/b:post_uid0] We thought it was kind of amusing, actually.[/color:post_uid0]

[Standback]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]You uninformed critics! Don't you know that, in the fourth season, just after Q helps them fend off the Borg-Dominion alliance, they discover that they were actually transported into a parallel universe in "Broken Bow"?[/color:post_uid0]

[catalina_marina]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Damn, I must have missed that one. I already knew they were in a the parallel universe, but I thought it was caused by the Temporal Cold War.[/color:post_uid0]

[PointyHairedJedi]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Well, I've often thought that they could get around the sub-space radio blooper by implying that they're using a Vulcan sub-space net rather than having the equipment on [i:post_uid0]Enterprise[/i:post_uid0] itself.

I think seeing some stuff from Earth's past might be good too. It's only been a hundered-odd years since WWIII, so it would be interesting to see the crew dealing with the consequences of that in some way. So far it's been more or less completely ignored.

EDIT: The inclusion of the [i:post_uid0]Daedalus[/i:post_uid0]-class ships at some point would be a nice idea too.[/color:post_uid0]

[catalina_marina]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]What about the photon torpedos they suddenly have? Hell, what about the modern form of the ship, more than Kirk's Enterprise?[/color:post_uid0]

[Sa'ar Chasm]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Or a laser cannon?[/color:post_uid0]

[mudshark]

[quote:post_uid0="PointyHairedJedi"][color=#000000:post_uid0]EDIT: The inclusion of the [i:post_uid0]Daedalus[/i:post_uid0]-class ships at some point would be a nice idea too.[/color:post_uid0][/quote:post_uid0]
[color=#000000:post_uid0]Chronology on the [i:post_uid0]Daedalus[/i:post_uid0] class is vague, at best. One of the best I've run across, and one I personally like, states that they were produced in large numbers as battle platforms for the Earth-Romulan War, which means that we [i:post_uid0]could[/i:post_uid0] conceivably see them on ENT at some point.[/color:post_uid0]

[ijdgaf]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Personally I think Enterprise could use a little more originality, not less.[/color:post_uid0]

[Michiel]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Originality is fine, as long as it doesn't screw up the time-line.

BTW: I think Enterprise has been pretty original so far.[/color:post_uid0]

[catalina_marina]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]It's original, but it has way too many things it's not supposed to have yet. Earth is not supposed to make first contact with the Ferengi untill TNG, but the Suliban are great, and they're still at war with the Klingons, just like they should, according to TOS. I think anyway, I don't watch TOS.[/color:post_uid0]

[Sa'ar Chasm]

[color=#000000:post_uid0][quote:post_uid0]It's original, but it has way too many things it's not supposed to have yet. [/quote:post_uid0]

Well, they've had a ripoff of Star Trek VI, a ripoff of 11:59, the standard Shuttle Crash Episode (several), the Mysterious Virus Episode, the Transporter Malfunction Episode, the Holodeck Episode (something else they shouldn't have), and probably several more which I'd recognize if I watched the show.

[quote:post_uid0]and they're still at war with the Klingons, just like they should, according to TOS. [quote:post_uid0]

According to TOS, they shouldn't even know the Klingons (and said Klingons should look like Mongols, but that's a whole other thread). My Star Trek Encyclopedia says that first contact with the Klingon Empire was made in 2218, long after the Federation was founded. The Earth-Romulan War should occur at the end of the series.

The Earth-Xindi war doesn't seem to appear in any historical records, oddly enough.[/color:post_uid0]

[Michiel]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Yes, it's a shame continuity isn't 'air-tight' with Enterprise, but I still think they've done a great job. There wouldn't be much of a serie without the klingons, the ferengi, a transporter, etc. They've got to have something to use. They can only try to minimize the damage.

And who knows, maybe at the end, in the last season perhaps, somehow the entire temporal cold war will be prevented and a lot of the things that didn't make sense, like the borg, will be prevented as well.[/color:post_uid0]

[catalina_marina]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Exactly. Time travelling can cause a lot of problems, but it can solve (continuity) problems too.
There's just one problem that's never going to be solved. If you try to change history because something went wrong, you can never succeed, because if you do, it wouldn't go wrong, so you wouldn't want to change anything. Then it does go wrong, and you change it, etc. etc... :eyeroll:[/color:post_uid0]

[Michiel]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]:D Gotta love a temporal paradox! :D

But to quote Daniëls:

[quote:post_uid0]You're thinking of time travel like Enterprise is some H.G. Wells novel. It's not. It's far more complicated. There's no way for you to understand.[/quote:post_uid0]

By the way, there wouldn't be any good movies or episodes about time travel if they had to avoid temporal paradoxes like this. I mean, Back To The Future [b:post_uid0]rules[/b:post_uid0], but it's full of such mistakes. And do you know the serie Early Edition? Some guy gets tomorrow's newspaper today, so he can prevent disasters, etc. Besides the fact that that newspaper would eventually forget how to print bad news, every disaster that guy prevents could never have been printed, so he could never have prevented it.[/color:post_uid0]

[catalina_marina]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]But the paper says what [i:post_uid0]would[/i:post_uid0] happen if Gary doesn't do anything about it. Or something. That's how I picture it anyway. Because as soon as someone (especially other that Gary) looks at the paper, it changes.

And [i:post_uid0]Back to the Future[/i:post_uid0] isn't as full of temporal paradoxes as [i:post_uid0]Star Trek[/i:post_uid0]. Of course it isn't as good as [i:post_uid0]Star Trek[/i:post_uid0] either.
Would that mean temporal paradoxes are good? :O[/color:post_uid0]

[Michiel]

[color=#000000:post_uid0][quote:post_uid0]But the paper says what would happen if Gary doesn't do anything about it. Or something. That's how I picture it anyway. Because as soon as someone (especially other that Gary) looks at the paper, it changes.[/quote:post_uid0]

It's Tomorrow's newspaper. That means, whatever is going to be printed on tomorrow's paper, that's what's in it. If you change something (like prevent a disaster), that disaster won't be printed tomorrow, and therefor, should never have been in Gary's paper.

[quote:post_uid0]And Back to the Future isn't as full of temporal paradoxes as Star Trek. Of course it isn't as good as Star Trek either.
Would that mean temporal paradoxes are good? :O[/quote:post_uid0]

You got it! :D[/color:post_uid0]

[Anonymous]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]I actually read a Gregory Benford novel called [i:post_uid0]Timescape[/i:post_uid0] that was all about people changing the past to prevent a global disaster by sending messages back using nutrinos or something. The explanation for getting round the paradox that might have ensued was actually very good and made sense - it was quite Trousers of Time-ish though.[/color:post_uid0]

[Michiel]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]I don't know that novel. What was the explanation?

I'll try to guess though. I've thought about this whole paradox thing a lot. :)

If you (lets call him you_1) send a message back to your past self (lets call him you_2), to prevent a disaster, you_1 shouldn't only send that message, but you_1 should also tell you_2 to send the exact same message back in time to you_3, even though you_2 already prevented the disaster. Then you_3 becomes you_2 and you_2 becomes you_1 and it starts all over, without a temporal paradox.

lol, am I making any sense?[/color:post_uid0]

[NAHTMMM]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]I don't think they've had [i:post_uid0]enough[/i:post_uid0] "transporter malfunction" episodes. The transporter is still leading-edge technology. It should have a few bugs still in the system, and the crew should have their doubts about using it.[/color:post_uid0]

[Michiel]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Ah, transporter psychosis. :)[/color:post_uid0]

[Derek]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]^ Unfortunately, according to "Realm of Fear" transporter psychosis won't be diagnosed for decades after ENTs run ends.

There are a lot of things about ENT I like or would like to see expounded on. I really like the ENT-era Vulcans. I'd like to see more stuff going on with them. I'd like to see more of Earth in general. I'd like to see the TCW expanded on more. I'd like to see more BotF storylines as well. I think ENT has a number of good threads that it needs to pick up on and grow with. I'm a little troubled by this whole "Delphic Expanse" thing because it leaves me with the feeling that everything up to now is just going to be dropped in favor of some wild goose chase. Oh well, I'll give it a chance.[/color:post_uid0]

[catalina_marina]

[color=#000000:post_uid0][quote:post_uid0]If you (lets call him you_1) send a message back to your past self (lets call him you_2), to prevent a disaster, you_1 shouldn't only send that message, but you_1 should also tell you_2 to send the exact same message back in time to you_3, even though you_2 already prevented the disaster. Then you_3 becomes you_2 and you_2 becomes you_1 and it starts all over, without a temporal paradox.[/quote:post_uid0]
Ah yes. The same thing is on [i:post_uid0]Starfleet Command[/i:post_uid0] when Picard tells himself how to defeat the Borg. :D

Has anybody ever seen 7 days? I have [b:post_uid0]absolutely[/b:post_uid0] no idea how they explain [i:post_uid0]that[/i:post_uid0]... :O[/color:post_uid0]

[Michiel]

[color=#000000:post_uid0][quote:post_uid0]Ah yes. The same thing is on Starfleet Command when Picard tells himself how to defeat the Borg. :D[/quote:post_uid0]

I don't know what you're talking about. Is this an episode?[/color:post_uid0]

[PointyHairedJedi]

[color=#000000:post_uid0][quote:post_uid0]Has anybody ever seen 7 days? I have absolutely no idea how they explain that... [/quote:post_uid0]

That was kinda strange. I mean, how did he avoid running into himself? And with all the jumping back, wouldn't that mean he'd get older a lot quicker compared to those around him? It just doesn't make any sense.

[quote:post_uid0]I don't know that novel. What was the explanation?
[/quote:post_uid0]

You know the theory that goes 'For every major event the timeline splits so that all the possible outcomes happen [i:post_uid0]somewhere[/i:post_uid0]'? It's what they used for [i:post_uid0]Sliders[/i:post_uid0] anyway. Well, in [i:post_uid0]Timescape[/i:post_uid0], the future scientists send this message back, and essentially force a split in the timeline because the message arriving [i:post_uid0]was[/i:post_uid0] the event. The timeline that the future scientists occupy continues as normal from their point of view, but a new timeline is created in which the ecological disaster doesn't happen because the message tells the past scientists how to prevent it. Basically speaking, they cause a new leg in the Trousers of Time to appear in the past whilst continuing down their own leg.

Does that make any sense?[/color:post_uid0]

[Sa'ar Chasm]

[color=#000000:post_uid0][quote:post_uid0]If you try to change history because something went wrong, you can never succeed, because if you do, it wouldn't go wrong, [/quote:post_uid0]

Tell that to Archer...or Sam Beckett, rather.[/color:post_uid0]

[catalina_marina]

[color=#000000:post_uid0][quote:post_uid0]I don't know what you're talking about. Is this an episode?[/quote:post_uid0]
No, it's a game.

[quote:post_uid0]That was kinda strange. I mean, how did he avoid running into himself?[/quote:post_uid0]
That, and somehow the others don't know he jumped, but they still have only one shuttle.
He does get older quicker, they explained that once, but he doesn't jump that often, so the difference is not that great.

[quote:post_uid0]Does that make any sense?[/quote:post_uid0]
Not only does it make sense, but I actually thought up that exact theory once. (I haven't read the book.) When I tried to explain it to my brother, however, he either didn't get it, or thought I was delirious. ;)[/color:post_uid0]

[Michiel]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Yes, I understand that theory. But it doesn't make any difference for those future scientists, does it? And if they don't even notice the difference, how do they know their message arrived? Or if sending messages back through time works at all, for that matter.[/color:post_uid0]

[PointyHairedJedi]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Well, the future scientists got the past scientists to leave a message in a bank vault if they recieved the messages. But you're right about them not knowing if it worked out eventually.[/color:post_uid0]

[Standback]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Can't avoid paradox if the traveller remains rooted in the timestream. I always favor the systems where the traveller is somehow disconnected from the new timestream - so if you kill you own grandfather, you yourself survive, even though in the new stream, you're never born.

Another neat system is that you can go back, except you can't make any changes to what you already know.

Meaning you can go back in time to when your grandfather was born, find his bassinet, and kill him... ON THE CONDITION that you then kidnap a similar looking baby, and put it in his place, because actually he was your grandfather all along...

A better example would be, you and your friend are walking along a corridor. Your friend, walking ahead, turns the corridor, then suddenly you hear a zap, see a flash of light, and then all is still.

Well, no problem. You go back in time, and teleport your friend to safety just as he turns the corner. The zap gun misses him entirely. Who are you to say that's not what happened the first time around?

Ah, what if you already turned the corner and saw his charred body? Well, even so, there's no reason to discard the possibility that this is only the charred remains of a [i:post_uid0]clone[/i:post_uid0], which your time-travelling self thoughtfully remembered to beam in as he got your friend out. So the only way for your friend to be absolutely, irrevocably dead, is if you scan him with your ReallyReallyDead-O-Tron, and see that it's really him, and he was really killed right now.

Unless, of course, you were to go back in time, pick up your scanner, and cause a minor malfunction...

I love time travel.[/color:post_uid0]

[Sa'ar Chasm]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]My brain hurts. Stop that.[/color:post_uid0]

[catalina_marina]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]But what if you don't? What if, say, you kill your grandfather, and don't put another baby in his place. And you make sure no one else does either. What happens then?[/color:post_uid0]

[PointyHairedJedi]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Well, for starters you don't go on to write [i:post_uid0]Red Dwarf[/i:post_uid0].[/color:post_uid0]

[Michiel]

[color=#000000:post_uid0][quote:post_uid0]Meaning you can go back in time to when your grandfather was born, find his bassinet, and kill him... ON THE CONDITION that you then kidnap a similar looking baby, and put it in his place, because actually he was your grandfather all along...[/quote:post_uid0]

Sounds like a predestination paradox to me, which is, I think, impossible. That similar looking baby couldn't possibly have identical DNA, so if that baby was your grandfather all along, you would never have existed if you never travelled back in time to do all this.

[quote:post_uid0]But what if you don't? What if, say, you kill your grandfather, and don't put another baby in his place. And you make sure no one else does either. What happens then?[/quote:post_uid0]

Then, you killed your grandfather, which means you never existed, so you couldn't have traveled back in time to kill your grandfather, so you DO exist, so you do travel back in time to kill him, which completes the temporal paradox, which, according to doc Brown, will destroy the universe. Granted, that's a worst case scenario. The destruction could be limited to only our own solar system. ;)

(Is it just me, or has this thread gone completely off topic? I'm not complaining, I like this kind of discussion.)[/color:post_uid0]

[catalina_marina]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Alright then, answer this: WHEN is the universe destroyed? Or is it that it never existed?
And what if only your own solar system is destroyed? Because, if someone from another solar system goes there, they find nothing right? But what if you already made first contact with another solar system? Then they already know you, which would mean, either you've suddenly disapeared, or history is changed, like with Dawn, or it causes a chain reaction. Like, we made first contact with the Vulcans, and some of us do something that would get our solar system to be destroyed by temporal paradox. Then the Vulcans would be destroyed too, just because they know we existed, which we didn't. The Vulcans know the Andorians, and a lot of other races. Since the Vulcans never existed, the Andorians never existed either, just like all those other races who know any Vulcans. Eventually, the whole universe would be destroyed anyway.[/color:post_uid0]

[Michiel]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Well, I haven't read the definitive text on the subject ;), but what you say sounds about right. In Back to the future, however, earth hasn't made any contact with aliens, so the destruction could only be limited to our solar system.

I don't think doc Brown thought of it this way though, because he regularly sais that a certain event would "create a major paradox". "major", that means bigger than the avarage paradox. And how can that be, if our theory is correct? Any temporal paradox on earth would cause this destruction in the same way, right?[/color:post_uid0]

[Sa'ar Chasm]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Brain...go...dribbly.[/color:post_uid0]

[Michiel]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]And by the way, I still have trouble understanding how a temporal paradox could destroy anything. It would simply be an endless loop. I don't think, though, that that loop could be limited to any area, because if earth's solar system would be in temporal paradox, what would happen if aliens visit earth [i:post_uid0]after[/i:post_uid0] the time-period that the paradox occured? No one knows what would happen 'after' the paradox, because there is no 'after'. The aliens would be frozen in that time-period too, without the oppertunity to ever visit earth.[/color:post_uid0]

[catalina_marina]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]I guess so, but I don't like doc's theory. It implies that if you [i:post_uid0]could[/i:post_uid0] ever travel through time, you still better not (and that's a major understatement) because if anything goes wrong, all of mankind would never have existed. It's pretty pessimistic.[/color:post_uid0]

[catalina_marina]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Don't think so quickly, I can't keep up with it. ;)

So you're saying that's where time stops? That sounds reasonable, in a matter of logic anyway. It makes me wonder, how did time start?[/color:post_uid0]

[Michiel]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]I'm not 'saying' anything. I'm just speculating. ;)

[quote:post_uid0]I guess so, but I don't like doc's theory. It implies that if you could ever travel through time, you still better not (and that's a major understatement) because if anything goes wrong, all of mankind would never have existed. It's pretty pessimistic.[/quote:post_uid0]

This is why time travel movies/episodes are full of paradoxes. If they couldn't do anything that would cause a paradox, there would be no good movie/episode.

However, has anyone read Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban? In that book, Harry and Hermiony's time travel has only one paradox. A predestination paradox, because Harry saves his past self's life. Other than that, the story is sound.[/color:post_uid0]

[NAHTMMM]

[color=#000000:post_uid0][quote:post_uid0="Michiel"]However, has anyone read Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban? In that book, Harry and Hermiony's time travel has only one paradox. A predestination paradox, because Harry saves his past self's life. Other than that, the story is sound.[/quote:post_uid0]
That's not a paradox, is it? :S Obviously, Harry saved his other self's life all along. Otherwise, he wouldn't have lived long enough to go back and save himself.

So (tracing the timeline of events) Harry's life is threatened, but then his older self comes along and saves him, then he grows older and eventually goes back in time to save himself.[/color:post_uid0]

[Michiel]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Exactly, but what set those events in motion? Harry should just have died, after which he couldn't grow older to save himself. The fact that this didn't occur, indicates a predestination paradox.

Another predestination paradox, according to 7of9, is the movie "First Contact". The borg disrupt first contact on earth, which leads the starship Enterprise (with Picard) to help Cograine with his warp-flight. So, the federation thanks its existance to the borg.

There's also a joke about predestination paradoxes made by doctor Bashir in Trials and Tribble-ulations. :)[/color:post_uid0]

[Michiel]

[color=#000000:post_uid0][quote:post_uid0]Another predestination paradox, according to 7of9, is the movie "First Contact". The borg disrupt first contact on earth, which leads the starship Enterprise (with Picard) to help Cograine with his warp-flight. So, the federation thanks its existance to the borg.[/quote:post_uid0]

Correction, this is called the 'Pogo-paradox', the causality loop in which interference to prevent an event actually triggers the same event. I just assumed it was a predestination paradox.[/color:post_uid0]

[NAHTMMM]

[color=#000000:post_uid0][quote:post_uid0="Michiel"]Exactly, but what set those events in motion? Harry should just have died, after which he couldn't grow older to save himself. The fact that this didn't occur, indicates a predestination paradox.[/quote:post_uid0]
No, he shouldn't have. I can't explain very confidently, because I don't know whether his younger self was aware of the time travel involved or even knew he was in danger, but it's no more paradoxical than if one non-time-travelling person were to warn another ordinary person away from a rickety bridge that would have plunged into a ravine had anybody stepped onto it.

And then there's always non-causal physics... :O :crying: :dead: Â Â Â Â Â ;)[/color:post_uid0]

[catalina_marina]

[color=#000000:post_uid0][quote:post_uid0]Correction, this is called the 'Pogo-paradox', the causality loop in which interference to prevent an event actually triggers the same event. I just assumed it was a predestination paradox. [/quote:post_uid0]
I'm not exactly sure what you mean, but I think the same could have happened with Harry Potter. Or maybe not the same. What if he was originally saved by someone else, but, because he travelled back, somehow he wasn't, so he had to do it himself. He would have disrupted the timeline, by actually getting his younger self killed, but he corrected it, by saving himself, so that it all works out anyway.[/color:post_uid0]

[Michiel]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]No, that doesn't sound right. I found a small summary of the book, here's the part I mean:

[quote:post_uid0]They are on there way back to Hogwarts and suddenly Lupin gets in front of the full moon and begins to change into a werewolf as heÂ’s forgotten to take his potion. Pettigrew changes and escapes before Harry can stop him. They go to get help but they see Sirius with the Dementors coming towards him. They close in around Harry, Hermione and Sirius getting ready to perform the kiss. Harry tries his patronus but then a Dementor goes to give Harry the kiss as well and before he faints something is driving the Dementors away and he thinks he sees his dad going back across the lake.

Harry wakes up in the hospital wing. Snape has handed over Sirius and the Dementors will be going for him. Harry and Hermione insist heÂ’s innocent but Snape has them all convinced apart from Dumbledore. He has a word with Harry and Hermione in private and tells Hermione that 3 turns should do it so that 2 lives will be saved that night. Hermione knows what he is on about, all year she has been using a time turner to travel back in time so she can do all of her lessons.

They travel back in time and first save Buckbeak from execution. They hide him and wait until Sirius is locked in the tower. Harry though has to see if it was his dad who rescued him, it wasn't it was his future self. They save Sirius from the tower and he flies off with Buckbeak. They manage to get back to the hospital wing just in time for Dumbledore to lock them in. Snape is furious that Black has escaped and blames Harry but he's been locked up all the time.[/quote:post_uid0]

Hm.. I guess this is still hard to understand without having read the entire book...

The fact is, the dementors would have killed him if his future self didn't summon a patronus to stop them. :D

I'm going to buy Harry Potter 5, by the way. :)[/color:post_uid0]

[catalina_marina]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]That does sound rather complex to me.

Sirius? So that's where that name came from... (In my d&d group there's character named Sirius)[/color:post_uid0]

[PointyHairedJedi]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Well, there is a star of the same name too (Sirius Canus Majoris AKA the Dog Star).

And my sister's copy of HP5 is already on the way. She's promised to let me read it at some point.

And I still think all of the above paradoxes would be coved by the [i:post_uid0]Timescape[/i:post_uid0] explanation.[/color:post_uid0]

[catalina_marina]

[color=#000000:post_uid0][quote:post_uid0]And I still think all of the above paradoxes would be coved by the Timescape explanation.[/quote:post_uid0]
I think so too, but I'm not exactly sure what would happen if the fact that someone or something gets send back in time doesn't change itself. Would that mean there is an infinite number of dimensions, which are exactly the same?[/color:post_uid0]

[PointyHairedJedi]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Well, if there are already potentially an infinite number of alternate timestreams existing (which of course is only theorised), then it's not going to make much of a difference if a few errant time-travelers create a few more.[/color:post_uid0]

[Sa'ar Chasm]

[color=#000000:post_uid0][quote:post_uid0]Well, there is a star of the same name too (Sirius Canus Majoris AKA the Dog Star).

[/quote:post_uid0]

Warning: Science Geek in the room.

Alpha Canis Majoris, to be pedantic, and I'm still not sure about the ending. My astronomy text says the names are supposed to be the "possessive" form of the constellation name (or something), but my Latin grammar doesn't match my vocabulary (which isn't all that classically impressive to begin with).[/color:post_uid0]

[PointyHairedJedi]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Well, it's not surprising considering that the bulk of my knowledge of astronomy has been gleaned from Patrick Moore on [i:post_uid0]The Sky at Night[/i:post_uid0].[/color:post_uid0]

[NAHTMMM]

[color=#000000:post_uid0][quote:post_uid0="catalina_marina"]
What if he was originally saved by someone else, but, because he travelled back, somehow he wasn't, so he had to do it himself. He would have disrupted the timeline, by actually getting his younger self killed, but he corrected it, by saving himself, so that it all works out anyway.[/quote:post_uid0]
No no no! :D He originally did save himself. [i:post_uid0]There was no "alternate timeline" involved.[/i:post_uid0] No more so than someone who, by walking along a sidewalk and suddenly stepping off into the grass, walking back a few paces, and then stepping back onto the sidewalk to resume his or her original path, is walking on two different sidewalks.[/color:post_uid0]

[PointyHairedJedi]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Very [i:post_uid0]Bill and Ted[/i:post_uid0].[/color:post_uid0]

[NeoMatrix]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Here is how I see time travel. The past can not be changed, and if you do go back to change something, you had already seen the result of the change before you go back. Its like you were already part of the past even though you had not gone back to change it. You go back thinking you are going to change the result, but you end up creating that result. I think the best example is the Voyager episode where they were caught in some anomaly, its one of the first episodes. They recieved a distress call, which happened to be their own call that they made later.[/color:post_uid0]

[Michiel]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]And that's called a predestination paradox. [b:post_uid0]The[/b:post_uid0] way to avoid a temporal paradox/loop for any episode/movie.[/color:post_uid0]

[catalina_marina]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]But how do you explain the ep with planet that had been destroyed then? Voyager comes to a planet where all the population has died a couple of days ago. When they go to investigate it, they find a temporal disturbance. Janeway and Paris go in it, and the others, while looking for them, cause some sort of pulse (or something), to get them back, which is the cause the planet got extinct in the first place. So far so good, but then Janeway and Paris figure out how to stop the pulse and they do. Therefor the planet never was extinct, and they never went back in time to stop it. So why was the planet extinct in the first place?[/color:post_uid0]

[Michiel]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]It wasn't. ;)[/color:post_uid0]

[catalina_marina]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Well, maybe not in the [i:post_uid0]first[/i:post_uid0] place... But it was in [i:post_uid0]some[/i:post_uid0] place... time... dimension... whatever. It was... would have been...

Never mind.[/color:post_uid0]

[PointyHairedJedi]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]They seem to be very fond of just 're-setting' time in [i:post_uid0]Voyager[/i:post_uid0] - it happened in the episode just mentioned, plus several others ("Year of Hell" being the only one that I can remember right now).[/color:post_uid0]

[Michiel]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]It also happened in Relativity.

Resetting time is the best way to repair damage to the time-line caused by time-travel.

Relativity though, as well as many many many other episodes make absolutely no sense. At one point they had captured 3 versions of the same criminal, each from a different time-period. They were to be 'reintegrated' before the trial, but I keep thinking. If they captured the criminal from the earliest time-period, the other two would never have existed. In fact, the whole episode would probably never have existed. It would, again, cause a temporal paradox. They have some strange explanations for all this. Each episode another, but I still like Daniëls explanation best.

[quote:post_uid0]You're thinking of time-travel like we're in some H.G. Wells novel. We're not. It's far more complicated. There's no way for you to understand.[/quote:post_uid0]

I changed my sig. ;)[/color:post_uid0]

[PointyHairedJedi]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]*coughcoughCOP-OUTcoughcough*

Well, it is.[/color:post_uid0]

[Sa'ar Chasm]

[color=#000000:post_uid0][quote:post_uid0]*coughcoughCOP-OUTcoughcough*
[/quote:post_uid0]

"But that ship, and all the Borg on it..."

"Jean-Luc, you think in such limited three-dimensional terms."

You were saying?[/color:post_uid0]

[Sa'ar Chasm]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Edit: Ignore this, folks, nothing to see here, just a little server glitch. Move on, move on, it's all over.[/color:post_uid0]

[taya17]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]I would add something intelligent to this conversation, but my brain has turned to mush from all the temporal tangling, so I won't.[/color:post_uid0]

[Katy Jane]

[color=#000000:post_uid0][quote:post_uid0="Michiel"]It also happened in Relativity.[/quote:post_uid0]
and "time and again"
and does "futures end" count?
how about "timeless"
and oh yeah "endgames"! :swear:[/color:post_uid0]

[taya17]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]I have the Star Trek Communicator's special on time travel episodes stashed somewhere in my drawer. There are TOO many time travel episodes to count with my fingers. And yes, I agree that the Big Reset Button plot device is a MAJOR cop-out, because it means that the writers can get away with anything without consequence!

Star Trek is not the only series which does this. "The Locket" from Farscape, for example, is one of the biggest reset button episodes I have [i:post_uid0]ever[/i:post_uid0] seen, aside from maybe "Year of Hell".[/color:post_uid0]

[NAHTMMM]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]I don't like reset buttons either, for the most part. And there are a lot of them in the ST novels, which isn't too surprising I suppose since the writers mostly seem to feel they can't mess up the continuity too badly for those who come afterwards.

I freely admit that my reaction to a particular reset is biased by my reaction to the story in which it occurs. I fully believe that the one in [i:post_uid0]Here There Be Dragons[/i:post_uid0], a novel which I consider below-average, is contrived and unnecessary. The author doesn't even bother to show much disappointment on the characters' part.
One could justifiably claim there's a reset in [i:post_uid0]Ishmael[/i:post_uid0] (which I really like, and which [i:post_uid0]is[/i:post_uid0] a time travel story), but that reset was actually an interesting reaction on the part of the character who was affected.[/color:post_uid0]

[Nan]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]I once figured out that the only way the past could be altered to your benefit is that it was done so by someone who was completely and wholly unconnected to you.

See, if you went back in time to, say, kill Stalin, history from the point of his "new" death would change.

Because of the change, the circumstances of your life and your parent's lives would change, and you, A.) may never be born, or B.) never experience the circumstance which would create the scenario of you even WANTING to kill Stalin.

In which case, you would never go back in time to kill him. Meaning, he would not be dead. Meaning, you would then return to the original line of events which propelled you on the course to kill Stalin. At which point, you would be stuck in a loop.

Anyway, you can't change time. There are too many unknown variables. The... whassitcalled... the Uncertainty Principle. Events have been set since the beginning of the universe ion the level of interacting energy and matter, we can never just SEE what's going to happen. The only reason why we can make choices is because we are not aware of those subatomic particles, even though they do have an effect.

It's kind of like the Matrix. But different.

The only conceivable way I could think of that a person could willy nilly change time is if they had somehow been pushed OUTSIDE the regular flow of time and space in some freaky parallel universe, where the various laws of the universe would not affect them. But then they'd probably be all out of step with time and never age, or age too quickly, etc.

So, all in all... time travel = too damn hard to figure out. ;)[/color:post_uid0]

[PointyHairedJedi]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]There also the fact that it would (and this has just occured to me) unbalance the weight of matter in the universe. 'Cos, you see, if you jump back then you'd be removing matter from your time and adding it to the universe of the prevoius time that you were visiting. I'm not exactly sure what effect it would cause, but's it's bound to do something bad, even if it was only over the long term.

Frankly I'm all in favour of accepting the Vulcan Science Directorate's conclusion that time travel is impossible and that I've just haluncinated anything I've ever read or seen that involved people time traveling in any way.

The eagle-eyed among you may notice that this does not include "Timescape".[/color:post_uid0]

[NAHTMMM]

[color=#000000:post_uid0][quote:post_uid0="PointyHairedJedi"]There also the fact that it would (and this has just occured to me) unbalance the weight of matter in the universe. 'Cos, you see, if you jump back then you'd be removing matter from your time and adding it to the universe of the prevoius time that you were visiting.[/quote:post_uid0]
It wouldn't be any worse than if you had set a bowling ball at the origin of a Cartesian grid painted on the floor, then returned and put it somewhere else on the y-axis. Time is just another axis (or set of axes), like the x-axis that you just deprived of mass, the ordinates of which when taken with all other coordinates define a particular place, time, and whatever else needs defining, in a spacetime continuum.

Now, if you were to remove a nontrivial amount of mass from one universe and scatter it around another universe so that it couldn't be measured or returned, I agree, you'd have messed up a universe or two pretty badly.[/color:post_uid0]

[Michiel]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Well, if you travel ten minutes back in time, and then just wait out those ten minutes in a dark corner untill you see yourself travel back in time, (this would be like Harry Potter 3), you'd actually be adding mass to the total 4-axis spacetime-continuüm (4 dimensions, width, height, depth and time).

If you weigh 75kg, you'd add 75kg to ten minutes ago, but that'd only last for 10 minutes, because then the first you travels back in time. :smile: So that would add a total of 45000 KgSeconds to the spacetime-continuüm. (I'm not sure if that unit exists, theoratically, but it would in temporal mechanics ;)) You wouldn't be taking mass away from your current time. This would even work if you go back a 100 years. You die, decompose, and your mass stays in the universe.

On the other hand, if you go back in time, like a 100 years, and go back later it depends. If the time you would go back to travels forward like the time you spend in the past, it'd be like PHJ said. You'd take mass away from your time, and add mass to the past, but the total mass of the spacetime-continuüm would stay the same. But if you travel back a 100 years, then travel back to the exact moment you originally left, you'd again add mass to the total spacetime-continuüm, like in the 10-minutes-example.[/color:post_uid0]

[Nan]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]The only way I can figure that you could time travel would be to go to the future. You could return to your own time frame but only to AFTER you'd left for the future.

Cue "special time" HHGTTG verbage. ;)[/color:post_uid0]

[Michiel]

[color=#000000:post_uid0][quote:post_uid0]The only way I can figure that you could time travel would be to go to the future. You could return to your own time frame but only to AFTER you'd left for the future.[/quote:post_uid0]

I don't understand, why is that? There could still be a temporal paradox.

And the thing about travel to the future... I could never travel 70 years to the future and see myself as an old man, because if that were possible, time would somehow 'know' I'd ever travel back. In Back To The Future, you can run into your future self, but there are also movies/episodes where, if you travel 70 years to the future, you'd end up in a time where you misteriously disappeared 70 years ago ;), as it should be, of course.[/color:post_uid0]

[catalina_marina]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]But if you have disappeared, the same problem still applies, because you would know that you didn't travel back. Or you would still have disappeared, even in your own time. Then you could never travel back, except for if you figure you can't change your own past and therefor must hide and live as a hermit, so that no-one would know you're still there.

[quote:post_uid0]... anything I've ever read or seen that involved people time traveling in any way.[/quote:post_uid0]
Have you?[/color:post_uid0]

[Michiel]

[color=#000000:post_uid0][quote:post_uid0]But if you have disappeared, the same problem still applies, because you would know that you didn't travel back. Or you would still have disappeared, even in your own time. Then you could never travel back, except for if you figure you can't change your own past and therefor must hide and live as a hermit, so that no-one would know you're still there.[/quote:post_uid0]

That's not what I mean. What I mean is that if you travel to the future without anyone knowing it (maybe without anyone knowing time travel even exists), they'd think you've dissapeared. So by traveling to the future, you've changed it. When you travel back to your own time, the original time-line would be restored, and you wouldn't have 'dissapeared', because.. there you are.

My point is, you could never travel to the future and see your future self.[/color:post_uid0]

[catalina_marina]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Why not? You haven't disappeared if you travel back right?

[i:post_uid0]My[/i:post_uid0] point is, you can't go to the future, find out you have disappeared, and then go back to go on with your life.[/color:post_uid0]

[Michiel]

[color=#000000:post_uid0][quote:post_uid0]Why not? You haven't disappeared if you travel back right?[/quote:post_uid0]

But [i:post_uid0]time[/i:post_uid0] doesn't 'know' you are ever going to travel back, right? Your traveling to the future made you disappear, if you travel back to the exact moment you left, you'd never have disappeared.[/color:post_uid0]

[PointyHairedJedi]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]I'm surprised no-one has brought up [i:post_uid0]Flight of the Navigator[/i:post_uid0] yet.[/color:post_uid0]

[catalina_marina]

[color=#000000:post_uid0][quote:post_uid0]if you travel back to the exact moment you left, you'd never have disappeared.[/quote:post_uid0]
That's exactly why you [i:post_uid0]could[/i:post_uid0] see your future self, as long as it doesn't influence you going back.[/color:post_uid0]

[mudshark]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Sounds like Michiel is arguing the need for some kind of "temporal mass-parity coefficient" in the equation. (Kind of like the cosmological constant.)


Not exactly the same thing, but I'm reminded of:

[i:post_uid0]In space travel ... the numbers are awful[/i:post_uid0] -- Slartibartfast[/color:post_uid0]

[Michiel]

[color=#000000:post_uid0][quote:post_uid0]That's exactly why you could see your future self, as long as it doesn't influence you going back.[/quote:post_uid0]

Changes in the timeline occur only the moment when you travel through it, using the consequences of that travel. The moment you travel 75 years to the future, the timeline records you suddenly dissapeared and suddenly reappeared 75 years later (the same physical age as when you left, of course). You've been missing the entire time inbetween.

Then, when you travel back to your own time, lets say to ten minutes from the moment you left, the timeline is changed once again. It now records you disappeared, then ten minutes later reappeared.

I think...

[quote:post_uid0]Sounds like Michiel is arguing the need for some kind of "temporal mass-parity coefficient" in the equation. (Kind of like the cosmological constant.)[/quote:post_uid0]

In English please. :) (Or, preferably in Dutch) Are you refering to the whole mass-post waaaay back there? ;)[/color:post_uid0]

[catalina_marina]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]You talk as if you've actually been there. But as long as you keep to one timeline, you can still change the future, even if you already know how it's going to turn out. Thereby changing your own past, in the future... If you travel back to your original time, you have not disappeared in the first place, or, you have, but re-appeared just about the same time. You would know that when you are in the future.[/color:post_uid0]

[Michiel]

[color=#000000:post_uid0][quote:post_uid0]You talk as if you've actually been there.[/quote:post_uid0]

WHO TOLD Y....

Meh, I just love discussing this kind of thing. :D[/color:post_uid0]

[catalina_marina]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Btw, I would do it in Dutch, but then you would have to travel back in time to eh, discover America first so that everyone would speak Dutch instead of English. Otherwise, the rest of the forum wouldn't understand a word, so I'll speak English untill you do. :p[/color:post_uid0]

[Michiel]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Actually I was refering to what Mudshark said.

And what you don't know, is that originally the US spoke French, until I traveled back in time to change it to English, which was preferable and acceptable. :D

Oh... Now you do.[/color:post_uid0]

[Sa'ar Chasm]

[color=#000000:post_uid0][quote:post_uid0]And what you don't know, is that originally the US spoke French[/quote:post_uid0]

Actually, it was Swedish until Stuyvesant (mangled the spelling, I suspect) wandered over and conquered them...after which Holland traded Nieuw Amsterdam to England in exchange for some largely useless South American coastline. Who got the raw end of that deal?[/color:post_uid0]

[catalina_marina]

[color=#000000:post_uid0][quote:post_uid0]Actually I was refering to what Mudshark said.[/quote:post_uid0]
I know. So? :D

[quote:post_uid0]And what you don't know, is that originally the US spoke French, until I traveled back in time to change it to English, which was preferable and acceptable. :D[/quote:post_uid0]
Oh in that case: thank you! THANK you!

[quote:post_uid0]Who got the raw end of that deal?[/quote:post_uid0]
Well, what could New Amsterdam [i:post_uid0]possibly[/i:post_uid0] become? Except for a large, wellfaring city like New York... DAMN![/color:post_uid0]

[Michiel]

[color=#000000:post_uid0][quote:post_uid0]Oh in that case: thank you! THANK you![/quote:post_uid0]

Am I ever glad I wasn't born in France. I don't speak a word of French. ;)[/color:post_uid0]

[NAHTMMM]

[color=#000000:post_uid0][quote:post_uid0="Sa'ar Chasm"]...after which Holland traded Nieuw Amsterdam to England in exchange for some largely useless South American coastline. Â Who got the raw end of that deal?[/quote:post_uid0]
England, obviously. The reason why we don't remember that as being the case is that Holland promptly went and blew its S.A. coastline in trades for draft picks that turned out to be worthless.[/color:post_uid0]

[Derek]

[quote:post_uid0="Michiel"][color=#000000:post_uid0]And what you don't know, is that originally the US spoke French, until I traveled back in time to change it to English, which was preferable and acceptable. :D[/color:post_uid0][/quote:post_uid0]
[color=#000000:post_uid0]Interesting historical fact I still retain from my AP US history class: When the United States was still under the Articles of Confederation, there was a vote over what the national language should be. English won out, of course, but German was not far behind.

I like to tell that to anyone who tells me "The US doesn't have an official national language." Well, it does, but whether it still applies is somewhat debatable (though the Land Act of 1785 applied long after the Constitution was accepted. In fact, it may still be followed today.)[/color:post_uid0]

[catalina_marina]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]The draft picks weren't useless. It's the colony we traded it for, which the US convinced (read: forced) us to give up after 200 years already. Now [i:post_uid0]that[/i:post_uid0] was just mean.[/color:post_uid0]

[mudshark]

[quote:post_uid0="Derek"][color=#000000:post_uid0]Interesting historical fact I still retain from my AP US history class: When the United States was still under the Articles of Confederation, there was a vote over what the national language should be. English won out, of course, but German was not far behind.[/color:post_uid0][/quote:post_uid0]
[color=#000000:post_uid0]As I recall, English was chosen by a [i:post_uid0]very[/i:post_uid0] narrow margin (one version says we were a single vote from speaking German.)


Michiel: I was responding more to the train of thought running through a number of your posts up to that point -- not to one in particular -- and that response shouldn't be taken too seriously. (That [i:post_uid0]was[/i:post_uid0] English, btw -- I'd be completely hopeless at Dutch.)[/color:post_uid0]

[Nan]

[color=#000000:post_uid0][quote:post_uid0="Michiel"]I don't understand, why is that? There could still be a temporal paradox.[/quote:post_uid0]
The important thing is travelling BACK to your original leaving point plus a few seconds.

Wait, that wouldn't work: any future you in any way influenced would not yet exist. There would be no future for you to go to. Which means you can't really time travel at all, because chaos theory sort of means that everything is interrelated anyway. I think.

I'm going with the Vulcan Science Directorate on this one. Multiverse is the only other way.

Except for that weird accelerated light thing. That's WEIRD.[/color:post_uid0]

[Katy Jane]

[quote:post_uid0="Nan"][color=#000000:post_uid0]Except for that weird accelerated light thing. That's WEIRD.[/color:post_uid0][/quote:post_uid0]
[color=#000000:post_uid0]yes it is.

but I'm with Janeway on this one, i make it a point of avoiding temporal paradox's (thats what she said anyway, she didnt do a very good job of it.)[/color:post_uid0]

[NAHTMMM]

[color=#000000:post_uid0][quote:post_uid0="Nan"]The important thing is travelling BACK to your original leaving point plus a few seconds.

Wait, that wouldn't work: any future you in any way influenced would not yet exist.[/quote:post_uid0]
Yes, it would! Just ask the Prophets. Or K't'lk and her non-causal physics. Or even Picard during "All Good Things...". "I don't see how, but I'll switch to my future self. He's had more time to think about it." :smile:[/color:post_uid0]

[Michiel]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]But h--

Cats.

Ah.

:D[/color:post_uid0]

[catalina_marina]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Huh? Cats? Weren't we talking about time-travelling and temporal paradoxes and such? What do cats have to do with that?[/color:post_uid0]

[Michiel]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Cats are the source of the space time continuüm, you didn't know? :)

Actually, it's from the "All good things..." fiver.

[quote:post_uid0]Past Data: I do not understand, sir. How do we create a static warp shell?
Picard: Just call up whoever's our chief engineer this week and tell him to rub some cats against the warp core.
Yar: Sir, this is too dangerous! We'll be destroyed! We've obeyed the rest of your senile orders, but this is too --
Picard: Do I have to get out my dramatic pep talk and beat you with it?
Yar: ....No, sir. I'm sorry.
Past Worf: That settles it: I do like him.

Picard: Static warp shell.
Data: H--
Picard: Cats.
Data: Ah.[/quote:post_uid0][/color:post_uid0]

[catalina_marina]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Ah yes, I really should catch up on the fivers I haven't read yet.

*Walks off in shame*[/color:post_uid0]

[mudshark]

[quote:post_uid0="Nan"][color=#000000:post_uid0]Except for that weird accelerated light thing. That's WEIRD.[/color:post_uid0][/quote:post_uid0]
[color=#000000:post_uid0]Which? The CERN experiment?[/color:post_uid0]

[PointyHairedJedi]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Particle accelerators are just the best. Better than tokamak reactors even.[/color:post_uid0]

[taya17]

[quote:post_uid0="PointyHairedJedi"][color=#000000:post_uid0]Better than tokamak reactors even.[/color:post_uid0][/quote:post_uid0]
[color=#000000:post_uid0]These are the donut-shaped things they use to create plasma, am I right?[/color:post_uid0]

[Nan]

[color=#000000:post_uid0][quote:post_uid0="Guest"]Which? The CERN experiment?[/quote:post_uid0]
The sped-up beam of light experiment. The one where the beam of light was sent through a supercooled gas chamber. There was some kind of causality violation because it somehow arrived on the other side before it entered.

Thus, [i:post_uid0]weird[/i:post_uid0].[/color:post_uid0]

[NAHTMMM]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Now, I know they [i:post_uid0]have[/i:post_uid0] "slowed" light down to a fraction of its usual velocity in gas chambers (I use quotation marks because they put tiny stop signs on each atom, making the light stop for a fraction of a second at each one. --Of course, if they'd used St. Louis light, I would use the word "slowed" without reservation, because the light would have just coasted through each and every single sign at a minimum of 10 mph :eyeroll:...)[/color:post_uid0]

[Nan]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Brought it to a stop in one experiment, but I dunno if that was CERN.[/color:post_uid0]

[mudshark]

[quote:post_uid0="Nan"][color=#000000:post_uid0][quote:post_uid0="Guest"]Which? The CERN experiment?[/quote:post_uid0]
The sped-up beam of light experiment. The one where the beam of light was sent through a supercooled gas chamber. There was some kind of causality violation because it somehow arrived on the other side before it entered.

Thus, [i:post_uid0]weird[/i:post_uid0].[/color:post_uid0][/quote:post_uid0]
[color=#000000:post_uid0]That's the one I was thinking of. :)
(Thought it was some guys from CERN that did that, but I could be wrong.)

And yes, weird. Has anyone put forth an explanation for that one yet? I recall the original announcement, but haven't seen much since.[/color:post_uid0]

[Nan]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Only the Variable Speed of Light (VSL) theory. But that's fairly new.[/color:post_uid0]

[PointyHairedJedi]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Not in the Discworld it aint.[/color:post_uid0]

[Nan]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]New Five-Minute Fora!

There's A Pratchett Reference In Every Thread.

:p[/color:post_uid0]

[Zeke]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]And as an added bonus, Zeke will miss 90% of them.[/color:post_uid0]

[PointyHairedJedi]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]You'll come around some-day, Zeke.[/color:post_uid0]

[AKAArzosah]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]if sending a message back in time only causes a split in the timeline for the different choices, then what would be the point? it wouldn't change anything in that timeline, and if the change advised in the message is possible, wouldn't that split have already occured?[/color:post_uid0]

[AKAArzosah]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Whoa, I guess I missed a page![/color:post_uid0]

[NeoMatrix]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]You remember that Voyager episode where they sent a message back in time to save Voyager from an icy grave.[/color:post_uid0]

[taya17]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Another one of them lame reset button episodes. :sighs sadly:[/color:post_uid0]

[PointyHairedJedi]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]D'you think you could shorten the link in your sig a teeny bit taya? Only it's kinda annoying.[/color:post_uid0]

[Michiel]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Heh, only with a teeny little resolution. ;) But yeah, it is annoying.[/color:post_uid0]