November 23

[Zeke]

Okay, let's get back on topic a bit. There's been a very exciting development in the world of Enterprise, and I'm pleased to be the one to give you the news. Ladies and gentlemen: we have met Robert Beltran, and he is Jolene (http://www.trektoday.com/news/191104_02.shtml) Blalock (http://www.trektoday.com/news/221104_01.shtml).


Let me explain something, Jolene, with the disclaimer that I love your acting work. Without Berman and Braga, absolutely nobody would listen when you talk. You owe them your job and your fame. They created your character, they made her interesting, and they gave her the second biggest role on the show, which is why you've had the chance to show us your skills. And here you are calling them bad writers for "forgetting" T'Pol doesn't eat with her hands (which couldn't possibly have been a subtle indication that she was growing more human), and ignoring the overwhelming majority of interesting material they've written for T'Pol.


To borrow from You Are Dumb (http://www.youaredumb.net), it's ACTUAL QUOTE TIME!


Blalock on Berman: "You have this head guy who's some kind of ancient old croaker with no concept of the real world outside, with his fine wine and his, er, crumpets." Anyone who's read even one article on or interview with Berman knows what a joke this description is. To hear it from someone who WORKS for him is unbelievable.


Blalock on the Xindi arc: "T'Pol's hair doesn't move -- even in battle! And if it does, we re-shoot it." Uh huh. Jolene, have you ever watched TV? Ever? That's how it's done. "We don't bleed here, and nobody dies. Give me a break!" I suppose not watching TV includes not watching Season 3, where, you know, people bled and died.


Finally, like so very, very many bashers, Blalock praises Manny Coto for saving the show, destroying B&B, dying for our sins, whatever you please. Coto's work is based entirely on the foundation B&B established in the last three seasons, but of course that's irrelevant, as is the fact that his stories this season are continuing in the same line. Season 4 is about exactly the same thing Seasons 1 and 2 were about: revisiting Trek concepts from previous series with new twists. Coto isn't the Joker to B&B's Batman -- he's Robin. And the reason he's writing good stories this season is that he learned from the best.


Hooo boy, that came out longer than I thought. Sorry; I just can't stand ingratitude, and B&B-bashing is a particular hot button for me. It's dishonest and hypocritical almost every time, and it makes it difficult for me to read the comments of people whose work I otherwise enjoy. (Why yes, evay, I do know you read these updates.... ;))

[Chancellor Valium]

I personally don't have a clue and don't care what she thinks, so long as she acts and doesn't whinge too much, so I am going to applaud very loudly and shout "hear hear", and "shame" alternately :D

[PointyHairedJedi]

Feel a bit better now that's off your cheast, Zeke? ;)

Also, B&B SUCK!!!!11one111eleven

[admiral sab]

lol yeah that's why I made that poll over the summer when her interviews were coming out. :) http://www.fiveminute.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=537

She annoys me sometimes. She should be happy she gets to kiss Connor! ;)

[Wade, The Sane Commodore]

yeah but... but... SHE'S HOT!

[evay]

^^Sorry, sweetness, but I stand by my rants. B&B may well have come up with the premise, but they did not use it to half its advantage. The stories which are being written this year are the kinds of stories we SHOULD have seen in S2, at least, and I could have cheerfully skipped the entire Xindi arc.

Blalock is complaining that B&B reduced a Vulcan to T&A. I agree with that complaint. She's in a contract. She complained to the writers, she complained to the suits, and she was told to bite the bullet and do her job. She did. But that doesn't mean she likes or agrees with what they did to T'Pol. Connor Trinneer had a similar comment with the hemming and hawing of the "relationship": either do something concrete with it or dump it.

Beltran may or may not have gone to the writers, I forget, but he DID stop doing his job other than the minimum necessary. I don't think Blalock is a particularly good actress, but whatever the flaws with her performance, she ain't phonin' it in.


They created your character, they made her interesting,
Some fans think they made her a mess -- that she was systematically stripped of every quality which made her uniquely Vulcan, purely and specifically to increase the sex quotient. I don't find that interesting, I find it sad.

And here you are calling them bad writers for "forgetting" T'Pol doesn't eat with her hands (which couldn't possibly have been a subtle indication that she was growing more human),
While we saw no indication that this was deliberate, let's say you're right. WHY should T'Pol grow more human? She is a VULCAN. Tuvok didn't need to grow more human. Vorik didn't need to grow more human. Is it because -- gasp -- T'Pol has BOOBIES? or more precisely, that Blalock has boobies?

I have been against the sexualization and objectification of T'Pol since "Broken Bow," so "hypocritical" is one adjective you can't stick me with.

However, we're each entitled to our opinions. We can just agree to disagree. :)

[Gatac]

As we used to say, you don't sh!% where you sleep.

Gatac

[Ginga]

*applauds* That was beautiful, Zeke! Absolutely marvelous! :D

[Kira]

I'm with evay, at least mostly. While I don't entirely agree with Blalock's open criticism (the phrase "biting the hand that feeds you" comes to mind), dismissing all of her views in one fell swoop as being Bermaga bashing? To that, I say: Pot. Kettle. Black.

And here you are calling them bad writers for "forgetting" T'Pol doesn't eat with her hands (which couldn't possibly have been a subtle indication that she was growing more human)
Like evay, I'm not inclined to give the writers the benefit of the doubt. It does seem like something that could easily slip past their notice. Kudos if it was a subtle character moment, but I don't think that's necessarily a solid assumption. It would have been stupidly easy to make it a character thing if that had been their intent. Observe.

(1) Have someone offer her popcorn; she hesitates, but then accepts. The hesitation there is a subtle yet vital clue that she's making a concession to human custom.
(2) Have Trip bring her a peach, along with utensils so she can eat it. (Or, cut up and with a fork.) She declines the utensils and eats it with her hands. The fact that Trip remembers and she declines shows, again, that she is changing her customs.

And to do justice to Blalock, since we're playing ACTUAL QUOTE TIME (http://www.trektoday.com/news/110904_02.shtml)...

Though she thinks Enterprise's concepts "are amazing", Blalock had words of criticism for the dialogue and found inconsistency in the development of Vulcan themes. "In 'Shadows of P'Jem', they made this huge story about how Vulcans were undermining Starfleet and had some kind of agenda, but they never went to readdress it," she noted. "Then there's this episode in which T'Pol gets sick, terminally ill, and they never readdress it. There's the characteristic where Vulcans don't eat food with their hands, and yet they'll write scenes where T'Pol is eating popcorn at a movie or Trip will bring T'Pol a peach. It's just so strange to me."
I don't think she's being unnecessarily nasty here; she's expressing a valid point of view that I'm sure a lot of fans share. I also appreciate that, being a TOS fan, she doesn't agree with what they've done to the Vulcans on Enterprise... again, a viewpoint that many, many fans can appreciate. From the sounds of it, she tried to object to some of the hand-eating scenes and was shot down without justifying why... that may not be the case, but if it is I'm more inclined to attribute it to lazy writers than not.

"We don't bleed here, and nobody dies. Give me a break!" I suppose not watching TV includes not watching Season 3, where, you know, people bled and died.
Again, I've got to side with Blalock on this one, because that's a complaint I've had while watching Season 3. I know they did kill off some redshirts (almost always offscreen), and some characters we had gotten to know (like the MACO whose name escapes me), but I never got the sense as I always did from Voyager that they had suffered casualties and it was weighing on the crew -- maybe Kate Mulgrew was just better at conveying it than Scott Bakula, or maybe it was because most of the casualties were heard and not seen. Enterprise did a good job in a few select instances (such as when the female engineer under Trip's command bit the dust and he had to deal with it) but I never got the general sense of danger and loss. When they returned to Earth (for real, ignoring the ill-conceived Nazi-Temporal-Cold-War-Reset-Button season opener) and Archer began talking about the crew they'd lost, my reaction was "Huh?".

Blalock definitely has a point about overuse of T&A (see: Trip and T'Pol sleeping together out of the blue; "Shadows of P'Jem"; every decon scene ever made). It's not always the case, particularly this season, but we've all had that thought at one time or another. Again, this is something that appears to be on the mend (see: fantastic episodes like "Home", "Twilight", "E2") but her complaint at being used mostly for sex appeal is a genuine one.

...Which brings me to one of the most valid criticisms that Blalock could have put forward, yet doesn't appear to have done so: what possible excuse can the writers still fathom (other than at the whim of UPN execs on crack who think that catsuit=ratings) for NOT GIVING T'POL A UNIFORM? It was stupid before but she wasn't really part of the crew, so I could let it slide. But now, she has a commission. She's accepted the crew and her role on Enterprise. She's resigned from the Vulcan High Council. So why the @*$&# is she still in that catsuit? It drives me insane because it's such a stupidly obvious ploy for ratings, not to mention interferes with the T'Pol-is-becoming-more-human vibe they're trying to send out. Hopefully they'll eventually figure out that she looks better in uniform (see: "Twilight"; Seven of Nine; Deanna Troi) and that it would be more in character for her as a full-fledged member of the crew.

[admiral sab]

okkkkkkk I respectfully disagree with a few points made. I think it's all a matter of perspective. For instance, a scene where I may see T'Pol confessing her undying love to Trip, someone may see T'Pol kissing Trip on the cheek in front of her fiance and mother and the Vulcan High Priest.

So here's my perspective:

T'Pol ate the peach with her hands, yes. But come on, Trip is very distracting. LOL ok that was just a bit of humor to lighten the mood. ;) Seriously, she ate the peach with her hands, but she's been living among humans awhile and it could be a testament to that. Vulcans don't like to be touched, however, I seem to recall many moments when Tuvok allowed crewmembers to touch him. Tuvok didn't have to become more human, but he did have a few episodes where he lost control of his emotions or where his Vulcan guard was down. The scene where Tuvok says goodbye to Neelix. How very uncharacteristic of Tuvok to move his foot as a gesture of friendship for Neelix. We the viewers knew that it was Tuvok's way of dancing. Neelix said he would get Tuvok to dance before they made it home (or whatever) and Tuvok gave Neelix that as a goodbye gift. Now was it necessary for Tuvok to do this? No. But it was a very sweet moment and an unguarded moment for Tuvok. The episode Gravity is another sentiment to moments where Tuvok had a very Un-Vulcan like moment. Is this bad writing on the parts of the writers or B & B? I don't think so.

My point is that T'Pol isn't the first Vulcan we've seen influenced by humanity. Being in such close contact with Trip also had something to do with this I believe. Yeah maybe the neuro pressure was just an excuse to get the two naked, but it worked. And it was fun to watch. I for one loved Similitude and Harbinger. I don't feel like their intimacy came out of nowhere. These two have been dancing around their feelings since Broken Bow. Unresolved Sexual Tension is what I like to call it. So they got it out of their systems and I know Trip thought that meant they were now a couple, but it scared T'Pol off. She was allowing her emotions to take control.

I think JB and CT's main concern with Trip and T'Pol's relationship is because she sees it as coming out of the blue. She doesn't see what a Vulcan would see in Trip. But as a viewer, and T/T shipper, I think it's obvious. But this isn't about that so I won't make it about that.

I think B & B did a good job. Ok Season 2 sucked in my opinion, but hey so did Season 2 of Voyager (ouch.) Ok Voyager 2nd Season didn't suck, but it wasn't the best. I loved Season 3, Xindi arc and all. It's what made me a fan again. I felt the loss and I knew that the Expanse was taking it's toll on the crew. The continuity was great. The ship wasn't fixed overnight and I loved the neat little touches that were done. Anyways, this is only my opinion and I like giving my perspective.

I forgot to add: About her uniform. I agree mainly because I was a big advocate for Seven to have a uniform and for Troi to have one. ;) However, perhaps a reason that T'Pol doesn't have one is because she has an honorary commission.

I totally agree though, that she shouldn't bite the hand of the one who feeds her! ;) Plus, B & B created Enterprise and got her the job. A little gratitude would be nice. And I really want a fifth season! That's all from me!

[MaverickZer0]

I don't talk much about it, but I am personally of the opinion that T/T makes sense. I didn't say I supported it. (Crossovers will rise again) but it makes sense. There has been lots of 'tension' since season one, and I don't thing 'Harbringer' was unexpected. Painful, maybe, but not unexpected.

Okay, that pun was lame. The point is, they're not really doing anything bad for the series, but they haven't done as much good for it as they could have. We've seen quality episodes out of them, and we would have liked to see more. We didn't, but we got some. And that's good enough for me.

[Scooter]

Zeke, you have the right idea. She has no business trashing the people that put her where she is in public. She has a right to feel this way, of course, which is merely ungrateful and a bit woodenheaded, but public comments like this show she has no grace, no style, no class.

Even though I disagree with some of the things Berman and Braga have done, the fact is that they have not only kept alive but expanded and enriched the Star Trek universe, and for that I am grateful even if Jolene is not.

The comparison with Beltran doesn't quite fit though--as you point out, they've done something with Blalok's character! Beltran was wrong to complain, but at least he had a point. (Though, as you also point out, Blalok can act...)

I'm assuming that Bakula has said nothing in relation to this. Probably a good idea.

[admiral sab]

Concerning Beltran's character, I thought they did something with it. Heh. But maybe that had their reasons not too. (coughWooDCough)

And of course C/7 developed out of nowhere so hey, maybe out of Blalock's comments she can be paired with a sexy on screen character... oh wait.. she has! ;)

OH and regarding C/7, I'm by no means a fan, but having watched the DVD's and watching all the episodes in order again, I'm seeing where they might have gotten the concept. Just a thought that has nothing to do with this topic.

Carry on.

[PointyHairedJedi]

Somewhat at a tanget, but - does anyone know of a good BitTorrent site that I can get Enterprise episodes from? Now that I've upgraded my OS BitTorrent actually works again, and I can start catching up at last. TVTorrents has every episode, but there are only actually seeds for season four, so any suggestions would be appreciated.

[Kira]

Try SuprNova.org (http://suprnova.org), the be-all and end-all of Torrent sources, movies and TV alike. I got "The Forge" downloaded in under an hour, IIRC, and this week's episode of Scrubs in under 45 minutes. Looks like they've got earlier seasons in bundles, as well as smatterings of individual pre-season 4 episodes.

Um, I mean, downloading is illegal and I have no knowledge of such activities. Yeah.

[admiral sab]

lol yep that's what site I go to, too! But I downloaded Borderland ONLY because I forgot to set my timer and I didn't get home in time to watch the show.

make sure you go to Suprnova.org and not .com or supernova because that's a scam. They want you to pay for the downloads.

[PointyHairedJedi]

Thanks muchly. There was an ENT specific site that I used to watch the S2 episodes that I missed the first time round, but that seems to be no longer around.

And besides, it's not like I'm keeing them. I just don't have the room.

EDIT: Hmm. Doesn't look like I'll have the room to download 'em in the first place. Bugger.

[Chancellor Valium]

In case I didn't say this in clear enough terms before (yes, I *AM* being completely egocentric....) I COULD NOT CARE LESS WHAT SOME ACTRESS THINKS! SHE IS PAID TO DO THE JOB NOT COMPLAIN! How many times on Doctor Who (a far lower budgeted programme) do you think anyone apart from the actor playing the doctor got away with whinging about the part? If they whinged, they got dumped on the next planet at then end of the next story. Or worse. Basically, I think that Star Trek has had it a little too easy for a little too long. sry - thats the end of my mildly anti-star trek rant.
Also, is it just me, or is Star Wars a rip-off of Flash Gordon?

[Nan]

Yes, it is just you, 'cos it's a ripoff of The Hidden Fortress by Kurosawa. :P

Oh. And Yojimbo.

[Chancellor Valium]

I meant about the 1930s film series of them....cloud city...opening text....bemulleted blonde hero.....evil emperor....etc etc ad nauseam

[Nan]

Stylistic precursors. It was the 70s and mullet hair was fairly common, there's always an evil Emperor, heroes were typically Aryans, clouds cities are fairly generic, etc. The actual plot and characters were taken from sources.

The opening text is a bit of a rip, but would still be Star Wars without it. Enh.

[Chancellor Valium]

s'pose so.....hey! stop being right!

[Nan]

I can't help it!

I'm a college student now, but I'm not getting any more lascivious or stupid. Wait, scratch that first one.

Mmmm... Jude Law....

....Aaaand I'm back.

[PointyHairedJedi]

s'pose so.....hey! stop being right!
That's like asking dragons to stop exploding in the woods, or asking the High Priest to stop being an Omnian.

Also.... Jude Law?

...Nah.

[Nan]

Stop mentionign Jude Law, damn it. I was spacing out in History not half an hour ago on related thoughts. X(

Mmmm.... Jude Law....

....Annd back.

[PointyHairedJedi]

Indeed?

*Jots something down on a notepad*

Hmm, interesting...

[Anonymous]

I never got the sense as I always did from Voyager that they had suffered casualties and it was weighing on the crew

On the contrary I liked how enterprise didn't simply kill red shirts arbitrarally. I find that it becomes meaningless if they do it too much. Any shuttle crash or away mission you can't possibly be surprised. Its to be expected. I think it would be better it they let you get to know characters a bit before they die so their deaths have some meaning. No one ever seems to remember their dead they dissapear and thats the end. I sorta liked Trips letter to the crew members family, it makes some meaning for the death besides making the situation seem more serious.
On a side note I'm not all that thrilled with Enterpise myself. Its not very star trek like at all. The Xindi war was completely stupid unless it gets temporally erased Its a huge plot whole that such a major conflict never gets recognized by anyone in the previous series. I definitely perfered seasons one and two, more TCW stuff should have been developed in season three instead of some stupid random war. I'm really hopeing that in the end the Krenum will pay a major part in the war. Why would such a temporally advanced race be left out. I missed the end of this seasons opening but I assume the TCW isn't over yet.
Back on track the I think Miss Blalock should have made some better points then those. For one the cheap sex. The reationship between her and Trip is stupid. It developes way to fast and way too well stupidly. Come on "I wanted to explore human sexuality" Sex is totally Taboo for Vulcan conversation let alone exploration. That is worth complaint. They should have developed the relationship more naturally if at all. The weding thing is a relatively good develpement but not necessary.
Well whatever they may be able to clean it all up.

[evay]

Tuvok didn't have to become more human, but he did have a few episodes where he lost control of his emotions or where his Vulcan guard was down. The scene where Tuvok says goodbye to Neelix. How very uncharacteristic of Tuvok to move his foot as a gesture of friendship for Neelix. We the viewers knew that it was Tuvok's way of dancing. Neelix said he would get Tuvok to dance before they made it home (or whatever) and Tuvok gave Neelix that as a goodbye gift. Now was it necessary for Tuvok to do this? No. But it was a very sweet moment and an unguarded moment for Tuvok. The episode Gravity is another sentiment to moments where Tuvok had a very Un-Vulcan like moment. Is this bad writing on the parts of the writers or B & B? I don't think so.

There is a difference between Doing As The Romans Do on occasion and changing one's essential nature to abandon one's culture and species. On Trek, each species/culture tends to have one or two markers to identify them so that Roddenberry could use them as foils for humanity, and to represent various aspects of our nature so he could write stories about that struggle. Obviously in reality individuals don't act like clones or have cookie-cutter personalities, but within the Trekiverse, Klingons are generally loud and obnoxious and honor-obsessed, Vulcans are cool and logical and rational, Orions are sneaky and plotting, etc.

Tuvok planned ahead and deliberately, openly chose to give Neelix the gift of a moment's dance. In "Gravity," if you're referring to his rebellious past, teenagers are of course given more slack than adults. I not sure what else in that show you'd consider to be un-Vulcan.

Now, at the end of "Breaking the Ice," we see that T'Pol has deliberately (and privately) chosen to try a piece of pecan pie, as a symbol of being willing to choose her own path. No problem. That's an example of bending to another culture's or another individual's wishes for an instance, out of respect or curiosity or whatever. It is not semantically equivalent to, for example, "Riddles," when amnesiac Tuvok was baking cakes and hanging out with Neelix.

Do you see the difference? Tuvok with amnesia making a sundae and Tuvok gravely waggling his foot at Neelix's departure are light-years apart. The point I am making, and Blalock's complaint, is that TPTB on ENT (and I believe it to be mostly B&B) have aimed for a version of T'Pol With Amnesia so they can have her be nekkid and emotional a lot, instead of T'Pol Waggling Her Foot, which would have much more impact. They have consistently worked to change T'Pol's essential, individual nature, to make her more human and less Vulcan. There is no dramatic reason for it. She's not half-human, she's not an android hoping to be a real live boy, she's not a former Borg trying to recapture the culture she lost, she's not a Changeling studying Solids.

Consider: V'Lar learned to shake hands, because it's what many other species do. She was curious and forthright. BUT: Did she show up in skin-tight robes? Did she laugh or cry or yell?

Consider: Sarek had two human wives. BUT: Did he take brain-damaging drugs recreationally, because it felt good?

Consider: Unca Jim's recap of the end of "Riddles":

{Tuvok says} "Well, then, why? Wh-why do you want me to go back to the way I was?!"

Because it's much better if it's your choice. Resistance is futile. Radical character alteration is irrelevant.

"Because," Neelix says at last, "this crew needs its tactical officer on the bridge. And I wouldn't be a very good friend if I ignored that, just so you'd be nicer to me."

It is my opinion, and that of many fans, and maybe that of Blalock, that this is what B&B have done. They've ignored the need for a collected, logical Vulcan XO on the bridge just so they can get Blalock's clothes off.


It is simple and researchable fact that in the three seasons where B&B had creative control, especially S3, T'Pol had her clothes off a lot (more often than anyone, Trip a close second), and lost her emotional control as a Vulcan. In the fourth season so far where Manny Coto has had more creative control, T'Pol has stayed clothed and has regained some of that control. You can draw whatever conclusions you want, you can think it interesting or pathetic, but that is fact.

[Wade, The Sane Commodore]

Whoa, whoa, ya all need to calm down here. First and foremost, let's remember we're dealing with a show on television, not interstellar politics.

Secondly, let me say this and p.o. everyone: Enterprise is not Trek. DS9 is not Trek. Do you know what Trek is? Let me tell you. Trek is Capt. Kirk landing on a planet, seducing the native women, beating up goons, having a redshirt get killed, and talking a computer into exploding. For time filler you have Bones and Spock arguing the finer points of humanity and Scotty off drinking somewheres with Chekov talking about how the USSR invented warp drive. Sulu, Rand, Uhura, Chapel hang out in the wardroom until the plot needs their characters or an alien hostage that we can't let get killed. That is Trek, ladies and gentlemen. So what is Enterprise, you ask? Ha! I do have an answer! Enterprise is the "Behind the Scenes" of Trek. You have legit stories on real Trek (TOS, TNG, VOY) but DS9 and ENT want to let you know how it all works. I for one have no idea how warp drive works, furthermore I don't care. It doesn't add anything to the plot. If Geordi says he needs more anti-matter or more kerosene the idea remains the same. And at the end of the episode the giant reset button is pushed and the Enterprise sails off at Ludicrous Speed. Every show an adventure, interchangable with all the others. That model survived 17 seasons of great Trek. Let me ask you: if Enterprise was filmed in real time, would anyone watch it? No. Unless the premise of the episode was "T'Pol gets stuck in decon", it would be boring as all get out. Why am I saying all this? Where am I going? Right here. If Enterprise's Season 4+ plot lines boil down to "How T'Pol got her Vulcan Back", it is finished as a respectable show. Because the evolving character gimick isn't Trek, its behind the scenes drama. And Trek is not drama.

[Chancellor Valium]

Naturally, this argument shows that Doctor Who is superior. You cannot interchange episodes of it (in the old series anyway,) because each episode leads on from the previous (Except season openers). :D

[Anonymous]

Whoa, whoa, ya all need to calm down here. First and foremost, let's remember we're dealing with a show on television, not interstellar politics.

Secondly, let me say this and p.o. everyone: Enterprise is not Trek. DS9 is not Trek. Do you know what Trek is? Let me tell you. Trek is Capt. Kirk landing on a planet, seducing the native women, beating up goons, having a redshirt get killed, and talking a computer into exploding. For time filler you have Bones and Spock arguing the finer points of humanity and Scotty off drinking somewheres with Chekov talking about how the USSR invented warp drive. Sulu, Rand, Uhura, Chapel hang out in the wardroom until the plot needs their characters or an alien hostage that we can't let get killed. That is Trek, ladies and gentlemen. So what is Enterprise, you ask? Ha! I do have an answer! Enterprise is the "Behind the Scenes" of Trek. You have legit stories on real Trek (TOS, TNG, VOY) but DS9 and ENT want to let you know how it all works. I for one have no idea how warp drive works, furthermore I don't care. It doesn't add anything to the plot. If Geordi says he needs more anti-matter or more kerosene the idea remains the same. And at the end of the episode the giant reset button is pushed and the Enterprise sails off at Ludicrous Speed. Every show an adventure, interchangable with all the others. That model survived 17 seasons of great Trek. Let me ask you: if Enterprise was filmed in real time, would anyone watch it? No. Unless the premise of the episode was "T'Pol gets stuck in decon", it would be boring as all get out. Why am I saying all this? Where am I going? Right here. If Enterprise's Season 4+ plot lines boil down to "How T'Pol got her Vulcan Back", it is finished as a respectable show. Because the evolving character gimick isn't Trek, its behind the scenes drama. And Trek is not drama.

Umm a bit confusing. The warp drive thing. Some people enjoy theoretical consepts. You were kinda all over the place here. All I can say is I probably don't agree with you. Probably.

[Anonymous]

Whoa, whoa, ya all need to calm down here. First and foremost, let's remember we're dealing with a show on television, not interstellar politics.

What are you talking about this chat hasn't gotten overly intense at all. We're all discussing calmly and respectfully. I haven't read a single over the top measage. No yelling nothing. We are calm. Why don't you tell Bush to start acting stupid or something.

[Celeste]

Off topic but... I'm guessing Zeke has given up on the updating every day thing.

[Opium]

WOAH! DS9 is Trek, but it is Trek-PLUS. It's Trek plus good drama, it's Trek plus CSI or ER or X-Files. It's Trek-PLUS. PLUS it makes it cool.

Enterprise is...Trek: The Prequel. TTP is just that...a forerunner to Trek, but made afterwards. To compare the Ent to DS9 is like comparing the Original Star Wars trilogy with the Ewok shows :wink: Okay, maybe that's a bit harsh. It's like comparing Original Star Wars to the new one, which included Jar Jar Binks and that wierd aging thing were Natalie Portman stays the same as her boyfriend ages about 12 years.

[persianmouse]

Gee, when did playing a flawed, complicated, and compelling character become a bad thing? T'pol is not a traditional Vulcan, they've never played her as a traditional Vulcan, she's...a little nutty. And I really don't see anything wrong with that. Human beings aren't all the same, why should that be true for vulcans. She has some emotional problems (and from way before the whole trellium-d, that was a symptom of her emotional issues, not the cause), and bally-hoo for TPTB for showing that in the future, people still have issues. And yes, she's Vulcan, but there were bound to be Insane, mad, eccentric Vulcans out there. It would make sense for her to be one. A vulcan living on a human ship, forging new ground, being an explorer, a revolutionary, is probably not gonna be someone who never rocks the boat. Now I'm not saying I approve of her drug habit, but that's the thing, you weren't supposed to like it, that story-line was supposed to piss you off, nobody is going 'yay for drugs!' over there. She was inadvertantly addicted to a substance she was initially exposed to through no fault of her own, and once she realized that this was no longer 'social drinking', that she had a problem, she stopped, and she got help, and she hasn't relasped. That is strength of character right there, to not go back, it's not easy.

Oh, and about the whole eating with your hands thing and picking up other human habits, here's a little lesson anyone who's ever taken a Sociology course should know; When a person goes and lives with another group, another culture, they begin to pick up small habits of that culture, even subconsciencely. An American goes to Europe for a few years, they come back smoking their cigarettes like a European, calling an elevator a 'lift' and eating scones. Or you go to Japan, and start taking you shoes off when you walk into a home, and bowing slightly when shaking hands. It's the natural flow of things, to adapt to new surroundings, to become part of the pack. So therefor, T'pol would probably pick up a few habits, like eating with her hands, or saying 'thank you'. She's not rejecting being Vulcan, so she eats with her hands, whoop-piddee-freakin-doo.

Most of this is just because she's Vulcan, and there is a misconception that you can define that into one particular set of rules, and if you deviate from those rules in any way, you cease to be Vulcan. No one has that kind of predjudice when it comes to humans on the show. Define what it is to be a Human being, give me a set of rules and social mores and cultural ideals that all humans have, and if they don't, then they are not human. Can you do that? When Trip does something, does anybody ask "Is that something a Human would do?" No, they ask "Is that something Trip would do?" whenever T'pol does anything the first thing said is "that's not something a Vulcan would do" T'pol is not just a Vulcan, she is a person in her own right with her own flaws and attributes, her own ideas and principles.I think it is good of the writers to write a race on star trek like it is an actual race, with differences, and varients and devience. And yes admittidly, there is some T&A for no purpose other than T&A, but that's everywhere on TV, it's like commericals, and it should not distract you from the overall story.

It's often said that strife and conflict on the set creates something really wonderfull on camera, so i don't care what dumb-ass things Jo wants to say, so long as she stays with the show, and portrays T'pol as well as she does.

-c.

[Xeroc]

Off topic but... I'm guessing Zeke has given up on the updating every day thing.
Apparently so. :? Although he hasn't admitted it yet. :P

[Zeke]

No, I haven't. This has just been a very rough month for daily updates, especially the end. I was hit very hard and very fast by something this week and it's been all I could do since then to get the bare minimum done. I've been left seriously wondering if anything I do is worth it.

But I'll be making a newspost tonight, and I'll try to get back onto a daily schedule from then on. The daily updates aren't dead. I'm just wondering whether it would matter if they were.

[Xeroc]

No, I haven't. This has just been a very rough month for daily updates, especially the end. I was hit very hard and very fast by something this week and it's been all I could do since then to get the bare minimum done. I've been left seriously wondering if anything I do is worth it.

But I'll be making a newspost tonight, and I'll try to get back onto a daily schedule from then on. The daily updates aren't dead. I'm just wondering whether it would matter if they were.
Maybe you should do every-other day posts (unless it's a multiday event, of course) or every three days, if there isn't new stuff right away, and so it's not as much work?

[evay]

Maybe weekly, or twice-weekly? Pick, I dunno, Sundays and Wednesdays or something? I never did understand the compulsion to say something every single day.


Gee, when did playing a flawed, complicated, and compelling character become a bad thing?

It's bad when the "flaws" are neither deliberate nor in keeping with the established character. And not everyone finds her "compelling."


T'pol is not a traditional Vulcan, they've never played her as a traditional Vulcan, she's...a little nutty. And I really don't see anything wrong with that. Human beings aren't all the same, why should that be true for vulcans.

I don't have a problem with T'Pol being a different kind of Vulcan -- the kind who would go to a jazz club, the kind who would experiment with a mind meld or take a post on a Terran ship because she was so curious. I DO have a problem with the NP arc, because there was no sensible, plot-driven in-character reason for it. It was all about skin. I DO have a problem with an intelligent, logical scientist allowing herself to become addicted to a drug which 'made me feeeel good.' Exposing herself to trellium was not like picking up drinking or smoking. She had to work at finding a way to expose herself to it without killing herself. And even at that, the arc could have been written better, and worked in over the year, but it was jammed into "Damage" like a geranium in a flowerpot and then "solved" in a TV hour. That's my problem: bad storytellng. I believe this is Jolene's complaint also.

Most of this is just because she's Vulcan, and there is a misconception that you can define that into one particular set of rules, and if you deviate from those rules in any way, you cease to be Vulcan.

I agree, but remember, this "misconception" is how Roddenberry set the universe up! So forgive us if we expect the franchise to keep playing by the rules originally established.

And yes admittidly, there is some T&A for no purpose other than T&A, but that's everywhere on TV, it's like commericals, and it should not distract you from the overall story.

that's what Jolene is saying. She knows she's T&A, but she doesn't want it to replace the story. In S3, not only did it distract me from the story, it was presented AS the story, and I resented it.

[Alexia]

No, I haven't. This has just been a very rough month for daily updates, especially the end.
You, my boy, need to stop beating yourself up everytime you miss an update! The world doesn't end if you miss one you know :wink:
I was hit very hard and very fast by something this week and it's been all I could do since then to get the bare minimum done. I've been left seriously wondering if anything I do is worth it.
Believe me, it is. I've met a lot of wonderful people through this site, through you. You, Colin "Zeke" Hayman, are a wonderful person. Cheer up :wink: Misery does not suit you :wink:
But I'll be making a newspost tonight, and I'll try to get back onto a daily schedule from then on. The daily updates aren't dead. I'm just wondering whether it would matter if they were.
It would matter if you gave up on updating full stop. I personally like the daily updates because you tend to use them as a sort of journal of Zeke. You tell us where you've been and what you've been doing to invariably delay site content updating :wink: If you wrote in your actually LJ more then maybe I wouldn't need these updates to know you are alive :mrgreen: I also like the random links you put in. They amuse me :D But as I said before, don't worry if you can't make one. We understand there is life outside of 5MV and you are one busy guy.

Just don't go and disappear completely, ok? People worry!

[Anonymous]

WOAH! DS9 is Trek, but it is Trek-PLUS. It's Trek plus good drama, it's Trek plus CSI or ER or X-Files. It's Trek-PLUS. PLUS it makes it cool.

Enterprise is...Trek: The Prequel. TTP is just that...a forerunner to Trek, but made afterwards. To compare the Ent to DS9 is like comparing the Original Star Wars trilogy with the Ewok shows :wink: Okay, maybe that's a bit harsh. It's like comparing Original Star Wars to the new one, which included Jar Jar Binks and that wierd aging thing were Natalie Portman stays the same as her boyfriend ages about 12 years.

Right on. You can't just dissmis other treks as being (not real trek) just because they're newer. Personally I think that TOS doesn't really fit with the newer instalments of the franchise. Same with enterprise.
Enterprise also shows that people can't do retro scifi anymore. Enterprise would have been cool as a Daledus class ship. That type is more raw, more old fasioned yet still more advanced then anything today. But instead they just made a cool new ship which was a poor choice. It doesn't look more advanced then voyager or DS9 or even TNG but its way more advanced looking then old school trek ships.
Same with the new Star Wars movies. Everything looks superior to the original star wars. The ships the weapons. Maby its suposed to show that the rise of the empire had a degrative effect on technology but I think its just lack of creativity on the part of the creators.

[Anonymous]

Gee, when did playing a flawed, complicated, and compelling character become a bad thing? T'pol is not a traditional Vulcan, they've never played her as a traditional Vulcan, she's...a little nutty. And I really don't see anything wrong with that. Human beings aren't all the same, why should that be true for vulcans. She has some emotional problems (and from way before the whole trellium-d, that was a symptom of her emotional issues, not the cause), and bally-hoo for TPTB for showing that in the future, people still have issues. And yes, she's Vulcan, but there were bound to be Insane, mad, eccentric Vulcans out there. It would make sense for her to be one. A vulcan living on a human ship, forging new ground, being an explorer, a revolutionary, is probably not gonna be someone who never rocks the boat. Now I'm not saying I approve of her drug habit, but that's the thing, you weren't supposed to like it, that story-line was supposed to piss you off, nobody is going 'yay for drugs!' over there. She was inadvertantly addicted to a substance she was initially exposed to through no fault of her own, and once she realized that this was no longer 'social drinking', that she had a problem, she stopped, and she got help, and she hasn't relasped. That is strength of character right there, to not go back, it's not easy.

Oh, and about the whole eating with your hands thing and picking up other human habits, here's a little lesson anyone who's ever taken a Sociology course should know; When a person goes and lives with another group, another culture, they begin to pick up small habits of that culture, even subconsciencely. An American goes to Europe for a few years, they come back smoking their cigarettes like a European, calling an elevator a 'lift' and eating scones. Or you go to Japan, and start taking you shoes off when you walk into a home, and bowing slightly when shaking hands. It's the natural flow of things, to adapt to new surroundings, to become part of the pack. So therefor, T'pol would probably pick up a few habits, like eating with her hands, or saying 'thank you'. She's not rejecting being Vulcan, so she eats with her hands, whoop-piddee-freakin-doo.

Most of this is just because she's Vulcan, and there is a misconception that you can define that into one particular set of rules, and if you deviate from those rules in any way, you cease to be Vulcan. No one has that kind of predjudice when it comes to humans on the show. Define what it is to be a Human being, give me a set of rules and social mores and cultural ideals that all humans have, and if they don't, then they are not human. Can you do that? When Trip does something, does anybody ask "Is that something a Human would do?" No, they ask "Is that something Trip would do?" whenever T'pol does anything the first thing said is "that's not something a Vulcan would do" T'pol is not just a Vulcan, she is a person in her own right with her own flaws and attributes, her own ideas and principles.I think it is good of the writers to write a race on star trek like it is an actual race, with differences, and varients and devience. And yes admittidly, there is some T&A for no purpose other than T&A, but that's everywhere on TV, it's like commericals, and it should not distract you from the overall story.

It's often said that strife and conflict on the set creates something really wonderfull on camera, so i don't care what dumb-ass things Jo wants to say, so long as she stays with the show, and portrays T'pol as well as she does.

-c.


I think that since Vulcans are a different race entirely they're rules of differences should be different from ours. Vulcans probably apear very different to other Vulcans. Likewise to Vulcans we all apear the same. Tovok says it himself. Thats how Vulcans have been made out to be.
I think originally T'pol was a great character. Now she's kinda gotten dull. The old becoming human thing is getting dry. Instead lets see humans become more alien. Maby they shoud meet a socially superior race and becme more like them.

[Anonymous]

Woops just so you guys no those Guest ones are mine

[NAHTMMM]

No, I haven't. This has just been a very rough month for daily updates, especially the end.
You, my boy, need to stop beating yourself up everytime you miss an update! The world doesn't end if you miss one you know :wink:
I was hit very hard and very fast by something this week and it's been all I could do since then to get the bare minimum done. I've been left seriously wondering if anything I do is worth it.
Believe me, it is. I've met a lot of wonderful people through this site, through you. You, Colin "Zeke" Hayman, are a wonderful person. Cheer up :wink: Misery does not suit you :wink:
But I'll be making a newspost tonight, and I'll try to get back onto a daily schedule from then on. The daily updates aren't dead. I'm just wondering whether it would matter if they were.
It would matter if you gave up on updating full stop. I personally like the daily updates because you tend to use them as a sort of journal of Zeke. You tell us where you've been and what you've been doing to invariably delay site content updating :wink: If you wrote in your actually LJ more then maybe I wouldn't need these updates to know you are alive :mrgreen: I also like the random links you put in. They amuse me :D But as I said before, don't worry if you can't make one. We understand there is life outside of 5MV and you are one busy guy.

Just don't go and disappear completely, ok? People worry!

I concur entirely with Alexia's post. :)

[PointyHairedJedi]

Also, Zeke, as I've said before, a little more delegation of responsibility is no bad thing.

[Scooter]

No, I haven't. This has just been a very rough month for daily updates, especially the end. I was hit very hard and very fast by something this week and it's been all I could do since then to get the bare minimum done. I've been left seriously wondering if anything I do is worth it.

But I'll be making a newspost tonight, and I'll try to get back onto a daily schedule from then on. The daily updates aren't dead. I'm just wondering whether it would matter if they were.

I concur with Alexia's post (thanks Alexia!) and also PHJ's. 5MV matters to all of us -- it's the only site I visit other than the Onion that makes me laugh -- and more importantly you matter to us. Not because we want stuff from you but because we're grateful for everything you've already given us. Not only have you created laughter in the world, but you've inspired a lot of other people to do the same in emulation. Plus we've gotten to know you in a very e-Universe sort of way and I don't think there's a single person who's a part of the 5MV world who would not agree that you're good people.

I've been a one-man web-site before, and I've been daunted by how onerous it is and how people seem to want stuff from you all the time. But then you look back on how much came from the mustard seed of creating a little web site long ago, and you just sit back in amazement that you had anything to do with it at all.

Ask for help if you need it, take a break if you need it. Take a deep breath. Make some hot chocolate and talk to a dog for a while. That always works for me. :)

[evay]

^^everything he said.

[MaverickZer0]

Failing a dog, a cat, hamster, or algae eater (like some of us) works just as well.

I kinda understand anyways. I run a (little-known) site, and I have to beat myself in the head to remember to update more than once a month. Maybe you're just trying to do too much at once.

[Anonymous]

Maybe someone else can do the chores and let you just write

[Anonymous]

Zeke -- that was PERFECT. As soon as I read Jolene's latest comments, my first thought was "Robert Beltran." As George Carlin used to say, "If you don't like the weather, move!" I like the direction ENT is going -- finally. It's one thing for actors to be honest about their feelings (I hated it when the classic cast was so postive about ST:TFF when they all knew how bad it was, but Jolene needs to balance her criticism with a little more diplomacy.

Nice work Zeke. And 5MV rocks; always has!

Bob Gillis

[Anonymous]

Which direction is that. The whole Xindi thing sucked there I said it. Well it seems like they're getting more into the original stuff. Thank god.

[Anonymous]

I...Which brings me to one of the most valid criticisms that Blalock could have put forward, yet doesn't appear to have done so: what possible excuse can the writers still fathom (other than at the whim of UPN execs on crack who think that catsuit=ratings) for NOT GIVING T'POL A UNIFORM? It was stupid before but she wasn't really part of the crew, so I could let it slide. But now, she has a commission. She's accepted the crew and her role on Enterprise. She's resigned from the Vulcan High Council. So why the @*$&# is she still in that catsuit? It drives me insane because it's such a stupidly obvious ploy for ratings, not to mention interferes with the T'Pol-is-becoming-more-human vibe they're trying to send out. Hopefully they'll eventually figure out that she looks better in uniform (see: "Twilight"; Seven of Nine; Deanna Troi) and that it would be more in character for her as a full-fledged member of the crew.

I have to agree with this. Seven was what I liked the least about Voyager and it's worse on Enterprise than ever. Enterprise lost me completely with the Rajiin/T'Pol scene. Rajiin was supposedly assaulting T'Pol telepathically, but it was blantantly gratuitous f/f sexploitation. I don't object to f/f scenes - I am, in fact, a bisexual woman - but get real, that was pure sleaze. I haven't watched Enterprise since.

The whole T&A thing is just a big cop-out. Supposedly, it's to draw male viewers and support the series, but if they put out good quality stories they wouldn't need so much of that nonsense - and they didn't on DS9. Oh sure, the dabo girls wore very revealing clothes, but how much screentime did they get compared to Seven or T'Pol? Even Leeta usually wore dresses that were less revealing than T'Pol's catsuit when they gave her a bigger role.

The whole decon thing told me where this was going. That was nonsense. A real decon should be something to drink to cleanse the system and a delousing, not people in their underwear rubbing gel on each other. That's so obviously nothing but sex it's downright silly.

One of these days the execs will realize that's there's all kinds of pics of nude women all over the internet and people who want to see stuff like that don't need to watch their shows to get it. They don't seem to have realized yet just how much the proliferation of nudity and porn online has de-valued this ploy. They're going to have to wise up soon, because T&A is becoming less of a rating draw all the time as people can easily find all of that they want online.

Let's face it, Enterprise doesn't get nearly as many viewers as Voyager or DS9 because so many people think it's boring and T'Pol's catsuit isn't enough to get them to watch. T&A worked for Voyager, but that was the early days of internet porn. Now home computers, as well as computers online in the workplace, are much more common and people can see all the female nudity and porn they want.

Simply put, they need to get back to producing good stories, without counting on a babe in a catsuit to make them money. And this requires them to not be so lazy as to leave loose ends all over the place or ignore those plot holes that are big enough for Godzilla to walk through. It would also help if the writers didn't ignore what they've written and contradict themselves all the time. Loyal viewers (hell, even casual viewers) remember this stuff and loyal viewers is supposed to be what they're after, right? They need to act like it if they expect to get them. I hope these lessons are learned soon, even if it has to be on SF shows unrelated to Trek.

[Anonymous]

[quote="mistshadow"]

Seven was what I liked the least about Voyager [quote]

*cough cough Nelix*

Maby the reason Seven was more popular was because she was an interesting character internet porn was plenty common at the time. I liked Seven she was cool she had really interesting developement. T'pol on the other hand has become an atempt to reuse an old consept. The sexy emotionless chick only works once then its just a rip off.

I'd also like to mention that towards the end of her time on voyager Kes wore an outfit not so different from Seven or Tpol's.

[Anonymous]

The whole decon thing told me where this was going. That was nonsense. A real decon should be something to drink to cleanse the system and a delousing, not people in their underwear rubbing gel on each other. That's so obviously nothing but sex it's downright silly

A drink no. The blue light is fine if its purpose is to burn off a layer of skin. In real life decontamination the people are nude so the underwear is actually more clothing then is reasonable. There could be some chemical agents (I think thats what the gel is suposed to be). Decon should really be a tube of some sort not a big stand up multi person chamber. And by the way there are no lice in space.

[Anonymous]

[quote="mistshadow"]

Seven was what I liked the least about Voyager [quote]

*cough cough Nelix*

Maby the reason Seven was more popular was because she was an interesting character internet porn was plenty common at the time. I liked Seven she was cool she had really interesting developement. T'pol on the other hand has become an atempt to reuse an old consept. The sexy emotionless chick only works once then its just a rip off.

I'd also like to mention that towards the end of her time on voyager Kes wore an outfit not so different from Seven or Tpol's.

Internet porn may have been common, but access to it in the home wasn't quite so common yet. I myself didn't have a home computer until Voyager's seventh season and I know plenty of people who were just getting one when Enterprise came out.

Interesting character development - okay, some of it was interesting (but some of it was also laughable at times, both scientifically and plot-wise). But no matter how much character development you try to pile on the eye candy, that's all it is really when the character is a babe in a catsuit. Think about it. They (including Jeri Ryan herself) always talked like the character development made up for the blatant sexploitation, but the character development also results in more screentime with the babe in a catsuit and heels. What a coincidence. And yes, Kes did wear a similar outfit towards the end. And she was gone as soon as they got another attractive woman (with bigger breasts) to wear revealing clothes for them. And you're right, it is reusing a concept either way, so it's even a cheaper tactic than ever.

Ok, so delousing wasn't the correct term. I'm sure you can figure out what I mean. Either a chemical cleansing spray/mist or a soap to use in the shower would work, not people in their underwear spreading gel on each other. But they can't show enough using the latter technique, so they came up with that. It' still silly and very obvious.

What's sad is that they just don't get it. It's the obvious and frankly sleazy sexploitation that is Enterprise's biggest weakness, not it's strength. They've used it so much that lots pf people think that's all there is to the show. And with rather weak storylines, plot holes and loose ends floating around eveyrwhere, how far from wrong are they? Like I said, they lost me with Rajiin. If they'd done a f/f scene with some class, I'd have been praising them, but that was tasteless. It's not like they can't do f/f now, they did it for years on Buffy. The execs think they can get more ratings with this stuff, but it's working the other way around now. People don't need tv shows for that anymore. They want good stories again and the execs are delivering more eye candy instead.

[Anonymous]

Okay T'pol has become ridiculus I just wanna defend Seven. Surly she was not worse then Nelix. See the reason she is sexy is becaue she has to be reminiscent of the borg queen. And the reason the borg queen is sexy is because it makes her all the more sinister. It no big deal for a show to have a bit of sex apeal. So thats my defense of Seven. Cause she was cool. Granted decon is rather dumb. I think thats why they stopped showing it

[Anonymous]

I think of all the "growing to be human" stories we've seen on Trek, Seven and The Doctor were the most interesting and touching.

[Anonymous]

I think so to but it requires proper context. T'pol is just a vulcan. Vulcan's are not somehow infirior to humans. I'd like to see some humans become more alien. Instead of them learning from us how about us learning from them. That was at one point a bit of T'pol's persona atleast in Sleeping Dogs. She taught Hoshi how to overcome here fears through vulcan meditation. A very nice scene might I add.