ENT 4x18 - In A Mirror, Darkly - Part I [Archive]

Zeke

04-23-2005, 02:36 AM

See, my only problem is that this wasn't really an episode of the series. Don't get me wrong, I loved it too, but Trek's AU episodes have worked because they were still based on "our" characters and their reactions to weird new realities. Even the biowhatever clones in "Course: Oblivion" were based on the VOY crew in every sense but the physical, so watching them taught us something about the characters. The mirror universe is so exaggerated, so far removed from our world, that the characters we saw this week tell us nothing about the real ones. With only five episodes of Enterprise left, it's a shame that two are being spent on a different ship and crew.

(Angel ran into this problem in Season 4. Everybody loves Angelus, but in order for him to be around, Angel can't be. That wasn't a big deal on BVS; on Angel, however, the main character of the show was supposed to be, you know, on it. The episodes were still great, but they felt like a side trip sometimes.)

Michiel

04-23-2005, 02:02 PM

Well, I certainly didn't see that one coming. The beginning was brilliant. I hope they explain this quickly, though.

And I haven't followed TOS. Was there a starship Defiant back then I should know about?

Also, I wonder, did the borg intervene in this timeline too? Did Picard and crew help there too? And were they our Picard and crew or evil Picard and crew?

Celeste

04-23-2005, 03:43 PM

I think everyone is being critical on the fact that they shouldn't be spending time in the AU with only 5 epsiodes left. But at the time of filming, they didn't know that they would be canceled. (okay, so they had a really really good idea they would, but we'll forget it) And besides, I watch Trek to learn about the universe, the species that inhabit it, and follow the events that take place in it. The continuity and ripples that spread through this universe are what make Star Trek what it is. No other television show can say they do what Star Trek does.

That is why I think it's great to see an AU episode from Enterprise's time. Sure it would have been better if the real crew would have been involved. But then everyone would be complaining about continueity! "ARARARAR They didn't know about the AU until TOS!!!!" You can't win either way. And, I don't get how they traveled in time, either. None of the other universes did that. But, with two part episodes, you always have to leave judgement until you've seen the whole thing. We've learned that in the past.

But for now, i'm going to go watch that episode again. :D

mudshark

04-23-2005, 08:33 PM

And I haven't followed TOS. Was there a starship Defiant back then I should know about? Yes, in the episode The Tholian Web.

Zeke

04-23-2005, 09:28 PM

Also, I wonder, did the borg intervene in this timeline too? Did Picard and crew help there too? And were they our Picard and crew or evil Picard and crew?

In the Reeves-Stevens' MU trilogy with William Shatner's name on it, one character (Spock, I think) does some digging and finds that the first point in history where the two universes differ is First Contact. I'm guessing that the R-Ses are basing this two-parter on the same MU backstory, because that gives the teaser special importance -- it shows the moment of divergence, where the MU became the MU.

What's harder to figure out is exactly what went differently. The obvious explanation is that because the Terran Empire was so different from the Federation, for one reason or another the Borg never encountered them; so the Enterprise never went back in time; so Cochrane conducted his launch as originally planned without hearing about the peaceful society he'd create; so his mistrust after WWIII won out and he shot the Vulcan; so the Terran Empire arose, completing a lovely little circle of causality. This would also explain why the shots of Next Gen characters in the crowd were cut out. The only problem is that the Enterprise apparently DID travel back in time in the books. At one point Janeway's MU counterpart mentions that Lake Sloane is called Lake Riker in her universe. (Sloane is Lily's last name.) I don't remember what the final word on this was in the books; it's probably in the conclusion, Preserver, if you care to look it up.

For more info, try Memory Alpha's (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Mirror_universe) MU page, particularly the italicized section at the end.

Zeke

04-23-2005, 09:46 PM

I just found the pertinent chapter of Dark Victory online (in French (http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:Djw2fLMXEA4J:members.fortunecity.fr/usssaga/0011/0102/DATA/E5/E5T/A05.html+%22lake+riker%22+%22lake+sloane&hl=en), of all things) and I can correct a couple of details in my post. First, it was actually Spock and mirror-Spock together who looked into this issue. Second, humans have encountered the Borg in the MU -- and by "encountered" I mean "wiped the floor with." They were aware of the threat sooner and prepared for it better. As we saw in last night's episode, the Terran Empire focused far more heavily on weapons than on anything else, like safe warp core design; we also know the Borg haven't been around as long as one might guess, since the Vaadwaur were the Delta Quadrant's big shots 900 years ago. With that information in mind, it's not too big a stretch that the Empire could have overpowered the Borg in, say, the early 2200s.

evay

04-24-2005, 03:24 PM

The TOS Defiant you're looking for is, appropriately, from "The Tholian Web."

Celeste

04-24-2005, 04:11 PM

Enterprise really makes me want to watch TOS. And I never liked TOS!

ijdgaf

04-24-2005, 11:05 PM

Enterprise really makes me want to watch TOS. And I never liked TOS!

I imagine you'll enjoy it a lot more than you expect to.

My girlfriend is... :D

Zeke

04-24-2005, 11:11 PM

Your girlfriend is a .gif file?

I always kind of suspected....

Nan

04-24-2005, 11:15 PM

Zing!

Xeroc

04-25-2005, 12:18 AM

Your girlfriend is a .gif file?
Yeah, and she's a little smiley if I might say so myself. :)

Wowbagger

04-25-2005, 01:57 AM

I thought they were really dumb to do the MU so close to finale time... but it was so COOL! And obviously, the fan reception was great, and the ratings were actually UP .2 points on a night when about half the country got pre-empted! So it obviously worked out.

http://zach.gqfleet.net/MirrorOpeningCredits.avi

Very cool file there.

MaverickZer0

04-26-2005, 12:28 AM

No kidding.

I liked it a lot, but...it's not like Faith of the Heart ever really bugged me at all.

Opium

04-26-2005, 01:23 AM

Not too bad an episode...but it did make me miss some of the best crossover and MU eppies EVER...the ones done by DS9!

I do think it's a bit odd doing one so close to the season finale without it being a cliffhanger, nevermind the series finale...but hey, it was entertaining, and very TOS-esque...campy, fun, quirky, and down n dirty. Just needed Sulu with some kirate moves...

"I find that offensive. Just because I'm of Japanese ancestry you assume I know karate." Wait, no, that was Futurama...

Good TOS-inspired ep, nonetheless

Derek

04-26-2005, 02:12 AM

Not too bad an episode...but it did make me miss some of the best crossover and MU eppies EVER...the ones done by DS9!
As much as I love the DS9 MU episodes, one of the things I liked about this episode is that it is still in the days before the Terran Empire fell. Humans aren't the underdogs, they're the big dogs. It was a nice change, and of course a throwback to "Mirror, Mirror".

Of course, if they want to take a page from DS9's book and kill off main characters left and right (I do have a feeling Forrest's days are numbered), I have no problem with that.

Opium

04-26-2005, 02:15 AM

Of course, if they want to take a page from DS9's book and kill off main characters left and right (I do have a feeling Forrest's days are numbered), I have no problem with that.

As long as there 'ships left and right, too! :P

Zeke

04-26-2005, 05:52 AM

Not too bad an episode...but it did make me miss some of the best crossover and MU eppies EVER...the ones done by DS9!
As much as I love the DS9 MU episodes --

I trust you both stop sometime before "The Emperor's New Cloak"....

Of course, if they want to take a page from DS9's book and kill off main characters left and right (I do have a feeling Forrest's days are numbered), I have no problem with that.

Didn't Forrest already die? I thought he was on Enterprise when it blew.

Derek

04-26-2005, 12:38 PM

I trust you both stop sometime before "The Emperor's New Cloak"....
Actually I don't think it's as bad as everyone makes out, though it is one of the weakest episodes (either that one or "Resurrection"). I kinda like seeing Rom trying to make sense of the MU.

Didn't Forrest already die? I thought he was on Enterprise when it blew.
Okay, I thought everyone on Enterprise died. I thought the escape pods were destroyed either by the Tholians or by their web. But then the preview for next week shows Hoshi magically aboard the Defiant somehow, so I'm not taking anything for granted until I see Forrest's dead, cold body floating in space (or at least some dialog saying he's dead).

Celeste

04-26-2005, 01:52 PM

If you noticed, some escape pods got through the holes in the web, while others went kablowy as they hit it. I"m guessing all the main characters will be the lucky ones. :P

Michiel

04-26-2005, 06:07 PM

What I don't understand about the mirror-universe-theory:

In DS9 they said there were no cloaking devices in the mirror universe. Obviously there are.
If earths first contact was the 'starting point' of the mirror universe, how come everyone in the episode acts evil already? This is not THAT long from first contact. And Phlox enjoying torturing people? Well, I suppose humans could have used vulcan technology to take over Denobula.
So the terran empire had the strength to conquer the vulcans and the borg, but they get defeated by the klingons one day?
How did the humans conquer the vulcans anyway? They were a group of people with primitive weapons boarding a vulcan ship. Obviously it had no security of any kind. And then they used that one ship to take over vulcan? I find it hard to believe.

Derek

04-26-2005, 07:30 PM

What I don't understand about the mirror-universe-theory:
I'm willing to give a couple of plausible explanations.

In DS9 they said there were no cloaking devices in the mirror universe. Obviously there are.
In DS9, it was the Klingons who had no cloaking device (nevermind "Crossover"). That doesn't stop the Suliban from having one.

If earths first contact was the 'starting point' of the mirror universe, how come everyone in the episode acts evil already? This is not THAT long from first contact. And Phlox enjoying torturing people? Well, I suppose humans could have used vulcan technology to take over Denobula.
As much as this week's episode might disprove what I'm about to say, there's nothing canonical about when the universes diverged. It could have been at First Contact. It could've been the universe where Edith Keeler lived. Who knows?

So the terran empire had the strength to conquer the vulcans and the borg, but they get defeated by the klingons one day?
The Klingons, Cardassians, and Bajorans jointly, if memory serves. And as the Intendant said, it was due to Kirk's contact with the MU that caused Spock to call for peace, and thus show weakness to their enemies.

How did the humans conquer the vulcans anyway? They were a group of people with primitive weapons boarding a vulcan ship. Obviously it had no security of any kind. And then they used that one ship to take over vulcan? I find it hard to believe.
Now that, I have no idea about. It does seem kind of implausible.

Michiel

04-26-2005, 10:00 PM

They all sound plausible enough. I have to catch up on my mirror-universe theory. ;)

By the way, what's "I.S.S. Enterprise"? It's on the hull of the mirror-Enterprise.

Zeke

04-26-2005, 10:04 PM

If earths first contact was the 'starting point' of the mirror universe, how come everyone in the episode acts evil already? This is not THAT long from first contact. And Phlox enjoying torturing people? Well, I suppose humans could have used vulcan technology to take over Denobula.

Keep in mind that the "real" universe has changed just as much for the better in just as short a time. ST:FC was based on the idea that first contact was an event with unique power to unite mankind. It's not such a stretch that we might unite against the aliens rather than in cooperation with them. (Remember Independence Day? They made a big point of how the alien attack brought the whole world together. Of course, as in Trek, the United States had to act first before anybody else got involved. Presumably we other countries were just twiddling our thumbs, going "dee dee dee dee doo, da dee dee doo dee dee....")

As for the change in humans' morality, maybe it's what came of being a species in constant battle with other worlds. The Romans considered themselves civilized and peace-loving, but we look back on much of their society with revulsion, and that society was all about constant expansion and "pacification." Also, remember that we're watching a military crew here. The standard ENT crew may have ranks, but their MU counterparts are soldiers. With such a drastic difference in their ways of life, Archer and Mirror-Archer might have no more in common than Picard and Shinzon did.

Of course, this is all just silly rationalization. "Mirror, Mirror" is a great time as long as you don't think too hard about it, and that applies to MU episodes in general.

Michiel

04-26-2005, 10:12 PM

Nicely said.

In fact, as I understand it, it's our universe that's the fake one. It's the result of a predestination paradox.

Derek

04-27-2005, 12:10 AM

By the way, what's "I.S.S. Enterprise"? It's on the hull of the mirror-Enterprise.
If U.S.S. Enterprise is the United Star Ship Enterprise, then I.S.S. Enterprise would be Imperial Star Ship.

And Phlox enjoying torturing people?
Actually, my biggest gripe with the episode was how they didn't even bother changing Mirror Phlox's character at all. <eg>

Opium

04-27-2005, 12:43 AM

I trust you both stop sometime before "The Emperor's New Cloak"....

Nope :D All of 'em. DS9 Rocked!

Um, anyway...one other thing was a little odd...there are two things that happen in most MU shows:
1) The meet their other selves and
2)It's the same time period.

Both critical elements were missing in this ep, which made me feel a little cheated (so far, as there is still part 2, of course) Oh well...wait and see, eh?

mudshark

04-27-2005, 12:56 AM

^ No quibble with item 2, but wasn't Kira the only one to meet her MU double? It could just be a brain drop-out, but I can't think of anyone else off the top of my head.

Zeke

04-27-2005, 02:10 AM

Actually, my biggest gripe with the episode was how they didn't even bother changing Mirror Phlox's character at all. <eg>

...I was going to use that joke in the fiver and now I can't. Because of you. All because of you.

(loud guitar comes in)

I kept everything inside! And even though I tried! It all fell apart! What it meant to me will eventually be a memory of a time when I tried! So! Hard! And got so far! But in the end, it doesn't even matter!....

evay

04-27-2005, 02:31 AM

By the way, Zeke, Shania Twain called -- she needs those exclamation points back or she can't finish her next album.

so I'm not taking anything for granted until I see Forrest's dead, cold body floating in space (or at least some dialog saying he's dead).
Or you could just check Vaughn Armstrong's IMDb listing (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0035932/#guest-appearances) and see that he's -- [SPOILER REMOVED. You should know better, evay. Shame on you and your kin. - Z]

Opium

04-27-2005, 02:51 AM

^ No quibble with item 2, but wasn't Kira the only one to meet her MU double? It could just be a brain drop-out, but I can't think of anyone else off the top of my head.

Oh...maybe, yah... but still, in DS9, MU and non-MU characters interacted, and the usual universe characters got to go into the MU...in "In The Mirror, Darkly" it's all MU, MU, MU, and time-travelled ship (instead of 'shiping) unless there's something they are not telling us... *du du dun* :D

I mean, who can forget MU Dax interacting with the usual Quark? *shudders*

ijdgaf

04-27-2005, 02:52 AM

:(

Linkin Park makes me very sad.

Zeke

04-27-2005, 03:19 AM

By the way, Zeke, Shania Twain called -- she needs those exclamation points back or she can't finish her next album.

Uh oh. If I'm not careful, she'll get me good.

Just like she should.

Nan

04-27-2005, 03:50 AM

As much as this week's episode might disprove what I'm about to say, there's nothing canonical about when the universes diverged. It could have been at First Contact. It could've been the universe where Edith Keeler lived. Who knows?

Damn that Edith Keeler!

Michiel

04-27-2005, 09:48 AM

evay

04-27-2005, 02:48 PM

oops! :oops: Sorry, Z, you're right, I should have spoiler-tagged that. My bad. I've gotten so accustomed to spoiler-whoring for the Soap Opera E-Plot that I forgot that I actually haven't been spoiled for IAMD2, and that not everyone reads spoilers anyway.

But leave Nonna out of this.

Uh oh. If I'm not careful, she'll get me good.
Just like she should.
Don't be stupid, you know she loves you.

Anonymous

04-29-2005, 10:06 PM