The Spoily Harry Potter Thread

[Katy Jane]

Have at 'er KGM. ;)

[Opium]

Warning: SPOILERS
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I have one thing to say to the last chapter of Book 6: NOOOOOOO! How could you, JK Rowling! I mean, Snape must have a good reason, right? He has to be redeemable, he was just saving Draco from a life of torment...perhaps Snape wasn't himself, or something?

And...NOOO! The White Tomb is some symbolism for rebirth, right? It has to be! It just HAS to be! Dumbledore...no...it can't be true, it just can't! There has to be something, something. He couldn't have died like that, he was tricked by the oldest trick in the book. Two of the oldest tricks-at some point, the locket must have been switched, right? After Dumbledore got it...perhaps Hagrid switched it?

I have much more reasoned thoughts on these, but I've already been discussing them at length over msn, so I don't feel like typing them out again. Yes, my name is Opium I am a HP Nerd.

[KillerGodMan]

THANK YOU!

OMG! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! DAMN YOU JK ROWLING!

NOW THEN. I had a theory on Snape's behaviour, maybe..... that part where Snape is argueing with Dumbledore, saying "I won't do it!" maybe Dumbldore was ASKING him to kill him, so Voldemort and the other Death Eaters will trust him completely.

I say this because, he's had tons of chances to bring Harry to Voldemort, without Dumbledore knowing, why didn't he?

Oh well, we'll have to wait until Book 7, hopefully Ginny will go with Harry, Ron and Hermione, because,remember, Vodemort has to be stopped with love. :):D:mrgreen::twisted:8):wink::lol:

Edited because I can't spell theory, and I had to ask someone. 8)

[MaverickZer0]

...I suppose I'm the only one in the world who saw Dumbledore's death coming.

It was obvious to me since they killed off Sirius--since Fred and George left--since Luna's last line in the fifth book.

Harry needs to face Voldemort alone.

He will stuggle and nearly fall, then remember and maybe be spiritually joined by all his friends and all the people he cared about. Dumbledore was there to help him realize the power he had within himself. Sirius was there because he needed to get over loss and trust again. Snape and Malfoy were there because he needed to learn to trust his own judgement and not other people's.

I think we're all taking it for granted that he will win. I know, it's not likely that he won't. He's the hero. But I just have this feeling that J.K.'s going to base it on how things go in the world, whether good or evil wins the day.

I also knew he'd leave Hogwarts the second he didn't think he could be an Auror. Even when he found out he could I still knew. That boy does not need more school. That was why he was Quidditch captain this year--he wouldn't be there the next. That is why he has been showing so much leadership and exposing the full range of his emotions lately.

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm morbid. Maybe I'm thinking too much. But I doubt everything will somehow fall into a nice, neat package. I think she's too good a writer for that.

Oh, and R.A.B. is most defintiely Sirius' brother Regulus Black. Cute family naming system, huh?

[Ginga]

Hey, I can come in here now! <3

DUMBLEDOOOOOOORE! DX DX DX

The one guy who I thought it impossible to kill! The one guy who I assumed would just be too powerful! ;_; Argh argh argh.

Odd random relationships in there, though. And it's even more annoying that Ron/Hermione wasn't clearly pronounced in the midst of all that random 'shipping chaos.

[Michiel]

I think it was always Dumbledore's intention to die. He knew about the unbreakable vow, and he's taught Harry all he needed to know.

So, any thoughts on who R.A.B. is? What about Regulus Black?

[MaverickZer0]

R.A.B. is definitely Regulus Black. J.K. followed her usual pattern of mentioning something important for later a couple of time early in the book, then dropping it later. He's mentioned at least twice with a bit of info.

...Am I the only one who wasn't shocked Dumbledore died?

[Michiel]

You weren't. I didn't really expect it, but I wasn't shocked. It kinda made sense.

And don't be too sure about that pattern. Do you know the past rumours about Mark Evans?

Another nice theory I just read about: Harry himself is a horcrux. It does make sense. Like the diary, Harry recieved a part of Voldemort (like parseltongue.) And Dumbledore himself thought that Harry was going to be Voldemorts last horcrux-murder (so hhmnbn was one short at the time.) But if this theory is true, which murder was it that Voldemort used to make the horcrux? And another gaping hole in this theory: Why has he tried to kill Harry on a couple of occasions?

[Nan]

He killed both of Harry's parents. Therefore, he did commit the necessary murder.

It's not clear how the maternal protection would interact, though.

[Katy Jane]

Thats an intresting theroy. I'M CONVINCED! It makes perfict sense.

I've heard two theroys on the "Dumbledore was asking Snape to kill him." theory... One of which was that Dumbledore wanted to be taken out of his misery, the other which is the unbrakeable curse... I tend to go with the second one. I have to beleve that Snape killed Dumbledore because he had to, not because he's evil. I can't stand the idea that Dumbledore was compleatly wrong about Snape...

[MaverickZer0]

Question: who or what is Mark Evans? i can tell he's related to Harry's mother, but I've never heard of him.

[Nan]

I imagine it's something of a red herring. The Evanses would be Petunia's side of the family. They would warrant more of a mention if it was important, and JKR is fond of misdirection. She usually drops subtler hints than that anyway.

As for Snape, he actively protected Harry from Voldemort and/or his minions on at least three explicit occasions: the Quidditch match at which Quirrell/Voldemort tried to jinx him off his broom to his death; the subsequent match where he reffed; and the confrontation with Sirius Black--granted Sirus wasn't evil, but everyone thought he was.

Other "Light Side" acts include outing himself as a Death Eater to Fudge in #4, heading off Quirrell/Voldemort in #1 (and getting mauled by Fluffy), attempting to teach Harry to protect his mind with Occlumency, etc.

Indeed, his favouring of Malfoy and antipathy toward Harry makes a good cover. Malfoy would likely pass it on to his parents if Snape openly showed any kind of good will toward Harry.

Snape is a bit of a question. His occlumency protects him from both Dumbledore's and Voldemort's legilimency, therefore he can lie to or deceive by omission both. He shares resentment for muggle family or treatment with Voldemort and Harry. He bullies Neville, although his motivations aren't entirely clear--he may believe he's doing good, trying to help Neville grow a backbone, or he may pick on him because Neville won't call him on it. He is callous to pain students suffer in the course of rivalry (think Hermione's teeth), but won't leave them to severe injury (bearing the group to the hospital wing on stretchers in #3, and protecting Harry from the broom jinx in #1). He lacks manners and empathy, and has a distinct inferiority complex.

Few of his aggressive acts against Harry can't be explained by the "cover"--or not--of fascist sympathizer. The outburst in Phoenix when Harry looked into his penseive relates more to his own issues of humiliation and resentment toward Harry's father, his "outing" as a brilliant-but-unstable freak as a youth.

If he's really a double agent for the good guys, it likely stems from the rational realization that Voldemort's society would be a paranoid, violent dictatorship in which he would likely be a second class citizen due to his own parentage, and also at risk of the same secret police and loyalty trials that most all other fascist societies develop.

Going by the example of many in fascist and communist societies, it's likely that as an angry, disaffected youth he fell in with the "screw the establishment" crowd, seeing current "integrated" societies as being weak, biased toward muggles, decadent, etc etc. Eventually, he would come to the realization that under the rule of a sociopath with no qualms about torture and murder was no better a place to live.

Just my theory, anyhow.

[Vedra]

All I want is for Harry to rip Snape apart particle by particle until there's nothing left but a wispy remnant of his immortal soul, which Harry will them curse to a million years writhing in the core of a red giant. That's all.

[Opium]

All I want is for Harry to rip Snape apart particle by particle until there's nothing left but a wispy remnant of his immortal soul, which Harry will them curse to a million years writhing in the core of a red giant. That's all.

Nooooooo! No no no no no no no no no no no no no no no! NO!

Harry Potter owes a lot to Snape, and Harry will not do harm to Snape, because if he does, he should be ripped apart bit by bit. There will be a somehow reasonable reason that Snape did what he did to Dumbledore. Snape's been through enough; he knows what he is doing, and JK Rowling wouldn't let the charater of Snape down like that by making him go back forever to the dark side.

Now, anyone else happy about the Tonks/Lupin relationship? I think it's kinda cool :)

I'm feeling kinda sorry for Trelwany (i cont spel) though I know she's sort of in a self-imposed prison of her own doing. But, she's so sad, really, after even Dumbledore decided to start to push her more to the edge than she already was.

[MaverickZer0]

Mmm.

...I still think that Sirius is going to come back because of what Luna said. On that note...

*pulls out Remus/Sirius and Neville/Luna banners*

I have nothing against Tonks. I actually think she's pretty cool. Lupin just isn't who I'd ship her with.

[Opium]

Mmm.

...I still think that Sirius is going to come back because of what Luna said. On that note...

*pulls out Remus/Sirius and Neville/Luna banners*

I have nothing against Tonks. I actually think she's pretty cool. Lupin just isn't who I'd ship her with.

*also pulls out Neville/Luna banner* but...

As cool as it would be, I highly doubt that JK Rowling will have any slash 'shipping. Because of that, I am all for Tonks/Lupin, because he really is a great guy who needs a wonderful partner in canon. Although in fanon there will always be... :twisted:

[Vedra]

I could care less what his reason is...it's inexcusable. And I'll be even MORE disappointed if Dumbledore comes back. That would make his death meaningless. Hopefully Harry will kill Snape in some incredibly satisfying way (and maybe Umbridge too, just out of spite) and then I can finally put this drawn-out series to bed.

[Michiel]

Snape took the unbreakable vow with Narcissa. Therefore he HAD TO kill Dumbledore, because Draco couldn't. Now, about taking the vow itself, I think it's perfectly plausable that Dumbledore wanted Snape to kill him rather than expose his loyalties to the Order of the Phoenix. Dumbledore has mentioned on a lot of occasions that there are things much worse than death.

Also, I think Snape will use the pensieve in book 7 so everyone can see Dumbledore say these things in his own words.

The fact that he saved Harry a couple of times, though, is not evidence enough. He explained all these things to Narcissa and Bellatrix in chapter 2. To be QUITE honest, from the readers perspective, Snape could still be a double double tripple spy for either side.

Oh, and Mark Evans was just a kid that used to get beaten up by Dudleys gang. A lot of people thought he was related to Lily Evans, and created some theories about his future role in the books. J.K. Rowling, however, squashed all of them on her website, when she said Mark Evans was no one. Just a very minor character who needed a name.

[stripysox]

I still want to know where James got the invisibility cloak. If they are so rare and valuable then it MUST be important!

I'd like to see Sirius come back, and in fact if R.A.B is his brother then that might tie in somehow. Do we actually know what was on the other side of that vale?

[Michiel]

Hm.. I don't see much importance in the cloaks origine, actually. If I remember correctly, Mad Eye Moody has two of them. I suppose Ron just thought they were rare, because they're so cool.

I don't think Sirius will come back, but I still think R.A.B. might be Regulus. Apparently the communication mirror Sirius gave Harry is of major importance, because J.K.R. refuses to answer any questions about it.

[Nan]

The fact that he saved Harry a couple of times, though, is not evidence enough. He explained all these things to Narcissa and Bellatrix in chapter 2.

Henh. It's not hard to explain away one's actions.

I haven't read it yet, anyway.

[Michiel]

He's also explained those things to Voldemort, and I'm not sure if Snape is good enough at occlumency to lie to him.

But, like I said, I think Snape is good, so he has to be good enough at it, right? :)

[Celeste]

::Cries:: I just read all 6 books in 4 and a half days. Snape can't be evil!! He just can't be!! I won't believe it!

Dumbledor believed in him right? He had to take the unbreakable vow to get Bellatrix to believe him that he was loyal to Voldemort. Snape told Dumbledor that he was going to be killed, and that he would most likely have to do it. Dumbledor told Harry everything he knows to prepair him for when he left. Now, Snape saves Malfoy from being killed while confirming his double agent position with Voldemort.

Dumbledore is linked to that Phoenix, right? He'll be back, right?? And how are they going to keep all the other characters together if its not based at the school. She'll have to bring them back to the school somehow.

I've heard some interesting theories that Harry will be the last hocroux. I'm just not sure if that's true, however it could be. I think that Malfoy is really going to turn around and help save Harry. And Snape will definatly play a big part in Voldemorts downfall. I hope those two will get together in the end. That would make me happy, seeing as how Snape was complelty evil to Harry every moment he got.

Anyway, how much longer till the next book? :P

[Opium]

Snape took the unbreakable vow with Narcissa. Therefore he HAD TO kill Dumbledore, because Draco couldn't. Now, about taking the vow itself, I think it's perfectly plausable that Dumbledore wanted Snape to kill him rather than expose his loyalties to the Order of the Phoenix. Dumbledore has mentioned on a lot of occasions that there are things much worse than death.



I agree. I really can't see Snape going totally evil forever.

[Celeste]

I just found an interesting thought on another board thing. It mentioned that there *was* a locket found that couldn't be opened in the Black household! Regulas Black (R.A.B.) brought that locket back to his house and its just sitting there waiting for Harry now!

[Michiel]

Very interesting. Page 108, in my book. It is mentioned very briefly.
There was a music box that emited a faintly sinister, tinkling tune when wound, and they all found themselves curiously weak and sleepy, until Ginny had the sense to slam the lid shut; a heavy locket that none of them could open; a number of ancient seals; and...
Regulus could have found it before he died, of course. But Sirius, Harry, etc. threw all of that stuff out. But it might still be there if Kreacher hid it somewhere.

[Celeste]

But it might still be there if Kreacher hid it somewhere.

Exactly. :D

[Opium]

I just found an interesting thought on another board thing. It mentioned that there *was* a locket found that couldn't be opened in the Black household! Regulas Black (R.A.B.) brought that locket back to his house and its just sitting there waiting for Harry now!

OoO, good one! Thanks for spotting it!

[Katy Jane]

Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! i fogot about that locket. It sould be intresting to find out what happened to it.

[Vedra]

I don't remember it very well, but didn't Sirius give Harry some kind of item to Harry in Order of the Phoenix? That could be used to talk to him or something?

[KillerGodMan]

^ Yes, Harry tried using it at the end of the book, but it didn't work.

Here's a fiver verson:

Harry: I wanna talk to Sirius
Item-which-KillerGM-forgot-the-name-of: ERROR! 404! Requested person does not exist!
Harry: Crap...

[Nan]

One of a pair of mirrors with walky-talky properties. By the time Harry tried to use his, Sirius was already dead.

[MaverickZer0]

Is Sirius actually dead? I thought he just fell through that curtain after being stunned...

Also, there's what Luna said. "Well, you heard them, didn't you? They're just beyond the curtain." Or something like that.

[Michiel]

I'm not sure either. But everyone in the book is pretty damn sure he's dead.

[Nan]

JKR refers to him as having "died."

The name "Merope" is interesting. It continues the celestial theme (Andromeda, Bellatrix), but also relates to myth. Merope was one of the Pleiades, all of whom and their mother were pursued by Orion the hunter. Merope rejected Orion and married a mortal, Sisyphus. Undeterred, Orion still pursued them, until they pled for assistance from Zeus. He transformed them into doves and later to stars, though Merope, because she married a mortal, was the dimmest star of the group.

Merope Gaunt married a normal human against his will and was "punished" (he left her and she died).

Hmm. Bellatrix means "female warrior" and Andromeda was the bride of the heroic Perseus. JKR doesn't pick names by chance, so it likely means something.

Thoughts?

[MaverickZer0]

Sure. Bellatrix Lestrange is one of the top Death Eaters, isn't she? Wonder what Lestrange means...

Did she actually say it with the quote marks? I'm still a firm believer that he's coming back, but Luna seems to be the only one who might agree with me...

Andromeda...Tonks' mother, right? And I'm sure Nymphadora means something, but I don't know what...

[Later] Checked. Nymphadora probably refers to 'gift of the nymphs' (the literal meaning), and probably refers to her shapeshifting abilities. Through a bit of guesswork and her Wikipedia entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nymphadora_Tonks).

[Vedra]

I had forgotten about him trying the mirror at the end of the fifth book. I've recently re-read it, but I skimmed a lot, since I've already read it and it's just...well,a big-ass book. Anyway, I heard Elizabeth Hurley might play Bellatrix. I think it's perfect. Then again, I thought Bette Midler should've played Molly. I'm weird like that.

[Nan]

Lestrange = "The Foreigner," probably. "Etranger" refers to strange people or foreigners. It's like "Barbara" (meaning 'barbarian' or 'outsider') or Laframboise.

Narcissa's an interesting one too. A white flower with a red heart, named for Narcissus (he killed himself for love of... himself). She's also demonstrating she's a Voldemort sympathizer but not fanatically loyal like Bellatrix--she secured a vow from Snape to preserve the life of her son, rather than have him fail his test.

[AKAArzosah]

Can someone copy down the prophecy please? I can't remember it, and i just had an interesting thought...

[Zeke]

Well, I can finally post here. I was very slow to get on board the Harry Potter train, but I've now read all six books and thoroughly enjoyed them all.

Snape is totally not evil. But I bet Harry will kill him anyway and not find out till later that he was wrong.

[Nan]

Great minds, Z, great minds.

[MaverickZer0]

Prophecy? Erg! Right. I don't know if the full thing was ever said, but here's the bit from OotP:

'The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies...and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not...and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives...the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies...'

There it is, exactly as Dumbledore's memory shows it. The first two and the first half of the second one refer to who it will be. 'Power the Dark Lord knows not' is where it takes a turn for Cornysville--as Dumbledore says, the power Harry has that Voldemort does not is love. (Cliché much?) The next part is very obvious--one must kill the other, and we all know who will kill whom. The last part is a summary of the first bits.

Kinda disappointing. I thought there'd be more clues in there.

[Opium]

Well, I can finally post here. I was very slow to get on board the Harry Potter train, but I've now read all six books and thoroughly enjoyed them all.

Snape is totally not evil. But I bet Harry will kill him anyway and not find out till later that he was wrong.

Yay! We have another Snape-is-not-totally-evil fan! *does the Snape-is-not-totally-evil dance*

[KillerGodMan]

^huzaa!

...what? You don't believe I'm a Snape-is-not-evil person?

[Celeste]

Snape is totally not evil. But I bet Harry will kill him anyway and not find out till later that he was wrong.

Nono, Snape is going to save Harrys life! And then he'll realize everything and be able to defeat you know who. I also think Dumbledore is going to come back in some shape or form. Though he's definatly dead.

But for those of you trying to convert the others on the Snape is good/Dumbledor's not dead thing, try this site. (http://www.dumbledoreisnotdead.com)

[Alexia]

Sure. Bellatrix Lestrange is one of the top Death Eaters, isn't she? Wonder what Lestrange means...

It's French for "the strange", just like letable is "the table" and "lebasket" is "the basket" :wink: (Unbelievably, I got an "A" grade in GSCE French :wink: )

Anyhoo, I finally managed to read the book and loved it; as usual. The woman can write, I'll give her that.

I would NEVER have remembered Sirius' brother had you lot not reminded me. And I didn't guess about Snape being the HBP AND I didn't guess Dumbledore would die.

This is why I don't read mysteries :wink:

[Nan]

Lestrange can also be broken down to "Les etranges," meaning "the foreigners" or "the outsiders."

[Alexia]

I was kidding :wink: :mrgreen:

[Nan]

Ah, but not entirely incorrect. ;)

[Zeke]

I've gotten a little better at guessing what J. K. is up to -- for example, this time I figured out quite quickly that Dumbledore was the target, not Harry. I was wrong about the Half-Blood Prince, though. I was sure that was Voldemort -- he's a half-blood, he gives himself titles, he has great magical skill, and he was at Hogwarts at the right time. I had a niggling feeling that that was too easy, though. (My second guess was Lily Evans, whose history and specialties we don't know much about.)

[Alexia]

I knew Harry wouldn't die, what with book 7 to come an' all :wink:

But I thought Snape would die...I guess that could happen in the next book.

[Michiel]

On her site, JK Rowling said that the Half Blood Prince is neither Harry nor Voldemort (or Tom Riddle.) So I knew it wasn't one of them. I though it would be a new character, though.

[Celeste]

I can't believe no one has started or added to this thread yet. Have you people seen the movie or what!!! :D It was, teh good. Lemme just say, that I got a little teary eyed, with Mister Radcliff's acting job after task number 3. He has turned into a fine actor there. Very well done.

Too bad they had to cut so much of the book. I missed SPEW and Sirius. Ahh well, still excellent. I'll be standing in line to buy the DVD.

[e of pi]

I actually didn't know this thread was here. First, I'd like to throw in my lot with the Snape-ain't-such-a-bad-guy crew. Second, I loved it. It was exactly like reading a copy of the book which had been devoured by termites, spit back out, and reassembled with the scotch tape of one mention subplots and speciel effects. Not that it wasn't good. I have done Contillion, not that I remember anything we "learned" or anything, and dancing with the teacher, who had to be at least four hundred years old was the scariest thing I have ever done. As for the DVD, don't know that I'll buy it, but I'll rent it once or twice.

[Opium]

I can't believe no one has started or added to this thread yet. Have you people seen the movie or what!!! :D It was, teh good. Lemme just say, that I got a little teary eyed, with Mister Radcliff's acting job after task number 3. He has turned into a fine actor there. Very well done.

Too bad they had to cut so much of the book. I missed SPEW and Sirius. Ahh well, still excellent. I'll be standing in line to buy the DVD.

I'm seeing it on an IMAX screen tomorow!

EDIT: I saw it yesterday, and it's really good, but it's more "Harry Potter and the Triwizard Tournament"-it misses a lot of side-plots, making some characters non-existent or only two-dimensional. It's still really good, though, especially Ralph Fiennes. Maggie Smith and Alan Rickman are great, even though they don't have a multitude of lines-their acting is so good it they don't need words at all. There is some interesting accents from the other schools-it seems that while they were trying to get some consistency in the Eastern European accents, they sort of end up being non-consistent individually. (Krum and Karkaro ffhad accents that changed to and fro from a Russian, German, and Swedish accents, rather than just settling on, say, Western Russian or something)

I give it an "A" as "Harry Potter and the Triwizard Tournment", and "B-" or "C+' (depending on your purity level) as book-pure "Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire".